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The Last Jedi (pls no spoilers)

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I would have made a status update but this is gonna take a while to discuss. Worth watching or not? The previous one (not R1) left such a sour taste in my mouth I can't (or don't want to) remember its title.

Spoiler your shit please with

[spoiler]
your shit
[/spoiler]
 


If the movie is actually terrible I guess you won't even need spoilers, since I likely won't watch it.

Also, are there lootboxes? :doge:

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It was... Not terrible, in my opinion. It's pretty controversial, which is a big step up from TFA which was universally regarded as bad. 

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I'm going to see it later today as my dad wants to see it and my sister is a huge geeks who watches a ton of movies anyway so will let you know in a few hours time.

I'm not a fan of The Force Awakens for what it's worth, thought it was entertaining but extremely bland as a movie. Going in with low expectations.

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Non related am I the only one who finds all SW movies to be all over rated? They are generally very slow and the plot is meh imo. But  have to admit the cgi on the Revenge was great like the fighting scenes.

Is it better or worse than the Force Awakens? Because tha was shit. Same plot as IV but just worse.

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I enjoyed VII, though I felt it was a near re-hash in tempo/beats/story-telling as IV.

VIII was... decent, but not thrilling. It had some great moments, but overall it didn't feel like a SW film, though it was in the SW universe. Not sure what it felt like... My wife made reference to the AMV-style editing for some of the sequences, and I'm tempted to agree with her.

Don't click, ranty and spoilery...

Canon complaints

 


They continued to play fast and loose with established canon on many things (not just EU, Disney has stated new canon is all movies, and stuff they've put out from a certain point... I think CW TV show?).

Regarding hyperspace travel. The Falcon popping out and back in with no recalculations, next to massive objects. The real-time communications when people were in hyperspace. The time dilation and asynchronicity of "6 hours of fuel", but time to hyperspace to another planet to find a slicer... BLEH. Big spoiler, so blinded again...

 

The kamikaze hyperspace run, though, was amazing. Both for adherence to canon physics/tech, and storytelling. The end result of that is why everyone needed to PLOT a safe course, and you needed an astromech or similarly robust computer IOT make the calculations so you didn't fly through a star, asteroid field, planet, black hole, gravity well, capital ship... etc. Additionally, the redemption/clarification/sacrifice of the Admiral... I was thinking she was a mole for a good chunk of the movie.

The use of "gravity" bombers as anti-capital ship? The fuck? Y-wing/B-wing/Tie Bombers were called bombers due to heavy payload, and use of bombs in gravity wells... e.g. Planets. When starfighters were used for anti-ship efforts, they used MISSILES! Bigger boom than the energy beams of ion/laser cannons, but with guidance/propulsion, as there were supposed to be some nods to the lack of gravity. Also, where in the FUCK where the shields on the Dreadnought? Such an awesome ship and design, to be obliterated in the first 10 minutes? Fuck.

Force Projection - canon power, however, at that distance, with that clarity? >_>    >_>   >_>   I dunno. The price was paid for it, but it still feels like a plot device, versus an actual occurrence within the universe. Additionally, now establishing that Force ghosts are a LOT more attuned to the Force and able to affect the real world than previously thought... Unsure if irked, or interested.

To continue with those irks, the "Force link" 'tween Reylo? That was crap storytelling, crap presentation, and some of the worst parts of the movie. Blech. Could excise all of that, and make it "feelings" a la Luke in V, and it'd be a much better presentation. Also, seconding Rei's request for Kylo to find a gods damned shirt.

Regarding the entire sub-quest to find a slicer... I liked DJ/Benicio's character, he was a cockroach, and an admirably good cockroach. However, SW canon has referred to any kind of information security work/hacking/cracking et alia as "slicing" and those that do it as "slicers." Mainly a concern from EU novels and EU timeframe RPG's/video games, however, I know that the term is still common currency in the more modern media, including stuff that has came out AFTER Disney rebooted canon. Who the fuck was keeping the holocron on that?!

Cloaking - bleh, every other Sci-Fi IP has it... of course it'd finally appear in SW. Not happy about it, though, and they coulda done without, I feel.

Vacuum in space - it's a thing... yes, people can survive it, briefly, technically... but don't open your eyes if you want to hold onto them.

What happened to the Knights of Ren massacring the neo Jedi Academy, that was flashed to in VII... Please tell me that the VIII version is just the whiney piss-baby making up his own shit.

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General complaints

 


Rose/Finn (Technerds) and Rei/Poe (RePo?) both feel awkward. The kiss by Rose seemed more hero worship than attraction, and the first meeting with Rei and Poe was filled with so much awkward sexual tension, I almost expected a pop song suitable for a teen high school rom-com to start playing. Meh on both.

Grey Jedi - NOPE. Fucking hell, all the trailers seemed to bait at finally a BALANCED force user, neither Light nor Dark, but much like Jacen in EU, apparently it's just baiting and bullshit. Bleh.

Length... oy, it felt like it was ending, multiple times. And some of them seemed to be decent beats to end on, too... and then they kept going. >_> sigh. Also, it broke with both V and II's pattern of being the middle child where rocks fall and everything sucks. Yes, this movie was about failure, and the lessons to be learned from it, but it was more of a victory at the end, as opposed to "holy shit, we just barely made it... where/what next?" of II/V. Yeah, I know, too cheerful.

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So, that's a lot of bitching - where's the good?

 

I appreciate that Snoke was given as undignified an end as he was introduced. Supreme Leader came from nowhere, looked like a joke, and was killed off like one as well.

Reylo shippers/fans - Get fucked. Kylo chose to be an evil and petulant man-child, and Rei chose to tell him to fuck off. I do hope that Kylo stays unredeemed... that'd be something different and decent for the franchise/story-telling in general. Sometimes, shitty people should just stay shitty (in stories, if you're shitty in reality, fix yourself).

Poe's arc - as former military, I liked how Poe has grown over these two movies... one-man Ace in VII, starts as a hot-shot leader/hero in VIII, and then sobers by the end of the movie and realizes there's bigger things than himself, and he starts acting like a leader, instead of a one-man show. I've seen flak thinking he's being misogynistic due to him going against Resistance leaders, but it's not the gender he's chafing at, but the role. He's feeling that the ones in charge aren't doing the heroic/right thing. Also, his face when Leia stuns him? Fucking priceless.

Luke's return was great, and I feel that both Mark and Carrie had a hand in revising some of the dialogue for their scenes... "I'm just gonna wave a laser sword and save the day!?"

Leia was finally shown as being a Force user. About time. EU canon had her untrained/low training, but with as much potential as Luke did, owing to the twinship. Nice to see she got to do something badass with it.

Violence levels and death/dying. Rogue One was a success, and Disney clearly learned from it. I feel it gave a little stronger impact to the opening space battle, and we finally saw, with graphic clarity, what exactly a 3 foot length of plasma will do to something other than inanimate objects. The Reylo lightsaber fight and killing of Snoak was amazing in the level of violence which they showed from both the sabers and the various vibroblades.

 

And finally, what does it all add up to?

 

A solid "meh". It wasn't the nigh-unpalatable mess that ep I was... but it was definitely weaker than the other 6 movies. A okay sci-fi film, mediocre Star Wars film. There were great moments, some of them amazing... but they added up to less than their sum. I'll rewatch it in a marathon, but that's about it.
I don't regret seeing it opening night, in the theaters. I'm still a hardcore enough SW nerd to feel it was worth it. However, I'm very curious to see what the second weekend numbers are... I feel as though there will be a stronger drop-off than expected.

Also, Rian Johnson - well done, you made me look forward to J. J. Abrams coming back to direct IX. I did not think that was possible.

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Errants covered it for the most part.  I had the same qualms.  

Of course I'm a disciple of the books.  So some of the characters rub me the wrong way.  TBH they should have gone down the Thrawn wormhole for these last 3.  And calling a movie Rouge one but not having Wedge, Jensen et al in it pissed me off

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2 hours ago, map381 said:

Errants covered it for the most part.  I had the same qualms.  

 

Aww, thanks!

2 hours ago, map381 said:

Of course I'm a disciple of the books.  So some of the characters rub me the wrong way.  TBH they should have gone down the Thrawn wormhole for these last 3.  And calling a movie Rouge one but not having Wedge, Jensen et al in it pissed me off

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That pissed me off as well, at first, and then that's when I realized with the "rocks fall, everyone dies" ending of Rogue One, that's WHERE Rogue Squadron started from. The misfits, trouble-makers, assholes, and hot shots - All giving homage to the original Rogue. Note that there is never another Rogue 1 in the EU (fuck Disney canon, sometimes), as it is either Rogue Leader, or Rogue 2, 3, 4, etc...

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So as promise here I am having just seen the movie a couple of hours ago.

Without spoilers....

It's meh. It's an entertaining enough action quasi-sci-fi movie (while there was nothing as weak and downright irritating as super-laser-beam-that-magically-splits-into-multiple-beams level from TFA, again the science elements feel weak), but the movie itself feels kind of hollow and lacking anything to really grab your attention. There's just something lacking about it. Some of the set pieces are very good and the action certainly is great. There are also some good performances: I thought Hamill does a great job as Luke, and while it's still too attention-grabbing emo for my tastes, Adam Driver's performance is really good (as in, it's so convincing I really dislike his character). The jokes were on the most part pretty good, although in some cases perhaps a bit too self-aware. But the story-telling...I dunno, it just doesn't work for me.

I'd give it a 5/10.

I agree with a lot of what Errants said, but some further comments on my major bug-bears:

Firstly, world-building: this new trilogy is absolute garbage at setting the scene. While the prequels are filled with character nonsense, at least it world-built very well and clearly showed how things were and how they got to where they were in the original trilogy. This one? No such scene setting. From TFA it's not made clear how the First Order is able to fund and produce so much military hardware coming from the remnants of the Empire (why didn't the New Republic get hold of that stuff?) or why the New Republic is so pacifist to the extent that it must secretly fund a 'resistance' to combat them.

Now the First Order, despite losings its super massive planet base, apparently still has enough military hardware to subjugate the rest of known space? And build fleet-killing dreadnoughts? Why the hell waste all that time with the super-weapon if your ordinary fleet seems capable of just crushing the New Republic in the first place?

Secondly, Villains: Snoke is complete garbage as a villain. Okay, I get that Ren is supposed to be the baddie, but the fact that he is only a baddie because Snoke apparently got into his head and turned him, yet we know absolutely nothing about Snoke. Who is he, how did he get so powerful with the dark side, what is his motivation (apart from galactic dominance), how did he turn Ren etc. But nada. He's a big bad sitting there who then gets offed. Lame.

Ren's motivation as a villain is actually not bad, he feels betrayed by his teacher and now wants to bury that scar by cutting off all ties with the past. But he's still coming across like an emo attention-grabbing child and is hard to relate how. How Admiral Hux treats him is pretty much how I feel towards him. He's not very likable because of that.

Phasma is also a letdown. Looks badass but gets taken out with a ridiculous sucker-punch.

Thirdly, the Science bits: Those bombers. Why? Why, for a space-fighter, would you have bombs like that? Why would you not just put some kind of propulsion on them and fire them as missiles after taking out the gun batteries? It feels like someone went: "do you know what's cool? Those shots from WWII when a bomber opens the bomb bays and you see the bombs drop out from the racks. We should totally have that in a Star Wars movie!" and they designed something to fit.

Also, if there was only 6 hours of fuel at sub-light speed, how could they hyper-space away and back while running around and still be okay? I thought there wasn't supposed to be much (if any) time dilation in hyperspace travel in Star Wars universe, but not an expert on the lore so not sure. It seemed strange. As did the real-time communication with the little hand-held communicators. I thought they couldn't communicate when in hyperspace. But again, not an expert. It seemed weird though.

 

 

Edited by Balthazars
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There are so many other great movies playing this winter in cinemas (Killing of a sacred deer, I Tonya to name a few) so talking about SW seems meh but I'm seeing it today anyway. 

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I want to see it but at the same time I don't because of the recent ones. Feels like there's no/too few quality film in terms of plot/development/acting in recent days. Most are blatant money grabs.

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I saw it on the weekend.

It's enjoyable... You can definitely tell it's a Disney movie however with comedy and 'cute' critters thrown in for no particular reason. With no spoilers I can't tell you my most interesting scene other than it contained mirrors. However I feel this was only glossed over / left open for viewer interpretation... (The best kind of scene!)

Some obvious marketing strategy to open the movie up to the Chinese market (Chinese market best market) - not needed and takes away from the movie in my opinion. But that's where the money is so can't complain too much...

Would I see it again? The answer is no. Although enjoyable and a step up over some of the other Starwars movies they have released recently it doesn't really add anything to the franchise which in my (un)popular opinion... I believe is ready to end. All good stories, movies and TV shows have an ending...  Knowing how the movie industry is however they will continue to pump out movies until it no longer makes money. This makes me sad.

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22 hours ago, SmurfReroll said:

 which is a big step up from TFA which was universally regarded as bad. 

93% on Rotten Tomatoes

8.1/10 on IMDB

3rd highest grossing movie of all time

It was not my favorite by any stretch and it cemented my feeling the JJ Abrams is a whore who will sacrifice storyline for boom whenever possible, but universally regarded as bad?  Thats a reach. 

Honestly, I thought everybody in TFA did a great job EXCEPT JJ, who just completely shit the bed on continuity.  If the entirety of the franchise did not exist, TFA would have been a good movie - its only taking it in context of what we know about the franchise do all of the directorial holes seem so obvious.  It took Anakin a decade to become a Jedi, it took Luke about two years, Rey skull fucked a Sith lord the first time she ever picked up a lightsaber - thats not Rey's fault, thats just bad direction. 

I'll probably go see TLJ next week on date night with wife.

 

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Quote

...it broke with both V and II's pattern of being the middle child where rocks fall and everything sucks. Yes, this movie was about failure, and the lessons to be learned from it, but it was more of a victory at the end, as opposed to "holy shit, we just barely made it... where/what next?" of II/V. Yeah, I know, too cheerful.

While the First Order lost Snoke, their capital ship, a dreadnought, and numerous star destroyers, the Resistance got fucking rekt. You know what's left of the *actual* resistance? Everyone on the Millennium Falcon. That's it. They've lost all their leaders besides Leia and Poe, lost Luke, lost all of their military equipment, and not a single person answered their calls for help. The Resistance is in a worse position than the Rebel Alliance was in any of the first trilogy. How the hell was it cheerful? Because the lead characters survived, and Leia was confident they were fine?

Also I liked the bombers. SW is Science Fantasy enough for them to not bother me.

 

I liked it, honestly. I don't follow SW canon outside of the games and movies, so I probably don't see as many plotholes as others, but I found it to be a good movie. I'm curious what they're going to do with Kylo, though.

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2 hours ago, NZStevie said:

Would I see it again? The answer is no. Although enjoyable and a step up over some of the other Starwars movies they have released recently it doesn't really add anything to the franchise which in my (un)popular opinion... I believe is ready to end. All good stories, movies and TV shows have an ending...  Knowing how the movie industry is however they will continue to pump out movies until it no longer makes money. This makes me sad.

Cough. Transformers. Cough.

Bad movies in disguise.

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1 hour ago, Ickus said:
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While the First Order lost Snoke, their capital ship, a dreadnought, and numerous star destroyers, the Resistance got fucking rekt. You know what's left of the *actual* resistance? Everyone on the Millennium Falcon. That's it. They've lost all their leaders besides Leia and Poe, lost Luke, lost all of their military equipment, and not a single person answered their calls for help. The Resistance is in a worse position than the Rebel Alliance was in any of the first trilogy. How the hell was it cheerful? Because the lead characters survived, and Leia was confident they were fine?


The tone, more than the actual circumstances. I agree, they're up shit creek, w/o a paddle, especially in light (meta) that they've effectively lost Leia as well. However, given the amazing hand waving that's occurred already for logistics, I'm sure they'll find something in time for IX.

Response! ^

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So TLJ is enjoying a whopping 57% audience approval on RT right now, but critics gave it 82%... https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi

Metacritic is showing similar numbers http://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-wars-episode-viii---the-last-jedi

This disparity is worrying me, even if I don't take RT and aggregated reviews seriously.

 

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My lore isn't all that good. Maybe someone here can help me out or I wasn't paying attention to some important narrative in one of the new movies.

I don't understand how they (the rebels) went to the blowing up of the death star, death of the emperor, death of  Vader and celebrating with cute little furry creatures....
To setting up a Jedi school, having that fail and the First Order rising with such power to the point where the rebels who could stop the empire are all but destroyed.
Lets not forget having the funds to create a laser planet and dreadnaughts and fund a massive army and fleet...

Makes... No....Sense.
Maybe the first order released a crate box system and some OP tier 8 to fund such extravagance.

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6 hours ago, NZStevie said:

My lore isn't all that good. Maybe someone here can help me out or I wasn't paying attention to some important narrative in one of the new movies.

I don't understand how they (the rebels) went to the blowing up of the death star, death of the emperor, death of  Vader and celebrating with cute little furry creatures....
To setting up a Jedi school, having that fail and the First Order rising with such power to the point where the rebels who could stop the empire are all but destroyed.
Lets not forget having the funds to create a laser planet and dreadnaughts and fund a massive army and fleet...

Makes... No....Sense.
Maybe the first order released a crate box system and some OP tier 8 to fund such extravagance.

See my spoiler comments above, but this is one of my big bug-bears not just with TLJ but also with TFA as well. There's a lot of hate on the prequels, but at least they were able to world-build properly. This new trilogy has some new super-all-powerful threat appear out of nothing with no context and no scene setting, just a whole lot of plot holes.

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6 hours ago, NZStevie said:

My lore isn't all that good. Maybe someone here can help me out or I wasn't paying attention to some important narrative in one of the new movies.

I don't understand how they (the rebels) went to the blowing up of the death star, death of the emperor, death of  Vader and celebrating with cute little furry creatures....
To setting up a Jedi school, having that fail and the First Order rising with such power to the point where the rebels who could stop the empire are all but destroyed.
Lets not forget having the funds to create a laser planet and dreadnaughts and fund a massive army and fleet...

Makes... No....Sense.
Maybe the first order released a crate box system and some OP tier 8 to fund such extravagance.

Disney is on the same level as 13yo psychofangirl when it comes to writing fanfics. I pointed out the same thing you did after TFA, 2 years ago.

Also: Rebels from the original trilogy fought to reinstitute the republic. Now the republic is neutral. What? It just doesn't make sense to me. The fight of the republic against the imperial remnant from the eu and how the new republic emerged in the eu made way more sense. Also: the first order, which is pretty much what's left of the Empire constructs something which is way bigger than both death stars. How? They surely have lacked resources. If they did - why the fuck didn't they build more convnentional weapons to get more territory? If the order didn't lack resources - why the fuck did the republic supposedly remained neutral against such a threat? It just doesn't make sense, it's just recycling the death star theme and screwing any logic that should've backed it up. Oh, and the way this superweapon works... Yeah, light is faster than light apparently. Well done jar jar abrams.

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I agree with much of what Errants says. However, I am not a huge SW nerd. I went to see it with my wife (left the kids at a party). We had dinner, a glass of wine, she liked the movie, I relaxed. A good night was had. My expectations of the movie were baseline.

I liked it overall. Too long. Should have cut the Rei/Kylo link crap. DJ likely to be a fun character for the future instalments. Not sure if Phasma was offed or is comng back with scars? Would watch it again on home TV to see what I missed on the first view, as a casual watcher.

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I enjoyed it. I've always liked Star Wars and I'm happy they're making movies again, even if some (or most, depending) things are bad.

I ended up missing how Snoke died though, girlfriend called and I ended up talking outside for like 20 minutes.

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On 18/12/2017 at 7:37 AM, NZStevie said:

'cute' critters thrown in for no particular reason.

That's actually to hide the puffins that are everywhere on the island they filmed it on.

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