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Okeano & Rexxie's guide on where NOT go to on maps (Updated 12/2/15)

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Murovonka magic forest is kinda interesting one. I had game where enemy have 3 more T9. From north spawn. Me with other 13 75, type 59 and some TD manage to blitz the forest and kill 4+ enemy without any casualties of lol

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I'll just leave this in here -__-

 

bGFXu7C.jpg

 

Yeah we lost, couldn't carry hard enough to compensate for JgPzE100, Batchat, T30, T-54, E100 and E-75 who died in the valley without doing anything.

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I had one game where the game is won by rushing the valley -_-

 

why it works? simply because based on my initial scout pretty much 10+ enemy is going to city. the pubbie so scared that they decide to go with crazy idea.

 

surprisingly work by some reason

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I had one game where the game is won by rushing the valley -_-

 

why it works? simply because based on my initial scout pretty much 10+ enemy is going to city. the pubbie so scared that they decide to go with crazy idea.

 

surprisingly work by some reason

 

I haven't seen a single one being won by rushing the valley. Those where the valley campers/rushers finally manage to cap the base have been won by the few who held city and middle with minimal help.

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the strategy behind it is kinda nice TBH.

 

-I scout the middle road and found roughly 12 enemy tank going to city

-Instead sending 12 our tank to the city we send 12 tank rushing to the valley.

-Remaining 3 tank (me and some TD) guard the base. since there is some sort of no man line between city and base. we manage to slow them down 

-12 tank manage to annihilate 3 defending tank in the cap. some of city people when back but it to late to reset the cap.

 

so basically we used no-man-land in the middle for effective effect. enemy in the city cannot effectively go to our base AND their base

 

but it mostly lucky anyway :P

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I had one game where the game is won by rushing the valley -_-

 

why it works? simply because based on my initial scout pretty much 10+ enemy is going to city. the pubbie so scared that they decide to go with crazy idea.

 

surprisingly work by some reason

 

any strategy can work, depending on circumstances; but that doesn't mean that every strategy is good or even equal - a Hail Mary pass can work, but you don't see team using it on the first play of the game because there are better choices. It's just confirmation bias that you (we) remember the one time it did work and conveniently forget all the times it didn't - that's how the human brain works. The point of analysis is to push through the confirmation bias and look at ALL the cases, not just the one or two successful cases that naturally stick in your mind. I've seen Lakeville valley pushes work; I've seen Murovanka Magic Forest pushes work, I've even seen Malinovka base-camping work - but the point is, the very large majority of the time, they don't.

 

High probabiltity of success strategies - city on Lakeville, 1-2 line on Steppes, hills on Murovanka - are much better in a random pub game than low probability strategies, because there are so many factors you can't anticipate. Being able to ignore what my memory told me ('that worked once!') and go with what is a better strategy was the first step in me ceasing to be red.

 

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Ofc, I didn't say it best idea. It Just it work at that time consider option we have

-i am in Lt. So it pointless for me to go to city fighting 12 tank

-rushing valley seem better idea like I describe at that time.

Most of the time. With normal tank. I go to city

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The reasons why Lakeville valley is a bad idea are two-fold:

  1. First, the terrain is very poor due to it being swampy. I think a lot of people who go there either don't realise this (It's their first time) or they just fail to recall this (It's not their first time). This is probably compounded by the fact that only one other map in rotation right now  (Karelia) has any large swampy terrain section so I suspect a lot of players simply don't know what swampy terrain is and don't understand why their tanks are moving so slowly.
  2. Second, and most important, the valley favours the defender. In order to attack through the valley you need to push up-hill, through poor terrain, a narrow choke-point and expose yourself to fire before you can fire in return. Pushing valley involves giving your opponent free shots and this is ALWAYS a bad idea. Any choice that involves ceding first-strike to the opponent is a bad choice unless you are 100% sure they can't penetrate you or track you.

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Based on what I said above, I think there are general points that can be used to identify bad spots on maps:

  1. Poor terrain passability -> Swamps, rivers, ponds, climbing steep hills (Sometimes, see point 2), destroyable buildings
  2. Poor cover -> Especially when combined with point 1. Being exposed is never good. Destroyable buildings count as poor cover.
  3. Too much cover -> Too much of a good thing can be bad. Too much cover (hard or soft) makes it hard to line up shots. Deep woods make it hard to spot and are hence vulnerable to flanking (See point 6). If you sit on the edge of deep woods in order to spot you are more likely to be spotted in return and even more vulnerable to flanking.
  4. Excessively low altitude -> Bottom of a valley, stream-bed, gulley, anything that gives your opponents a chance to shoot your roof
  5. Excessively high altitude -> Top of a mountain, dangling over a ledge, etc. Anything that makes it easy for others to see you, target you and hit your LFP or underbelly
  6. Excessive possibility of being flanked -> Town squares, over-extended positions, centre of the map etc. This is why Karelia East is better than Karelia West: The mountain reduces the chances of being flanked on both sides.
  7. Dead-ends, bolt-holes, "safe-zones" with no exit plan -> There are a couple of these around. It's usually a bad idea to go into one of these because once you're in there's a good chance you'll never come out alive.
  8. Choke-points -> This one is tricky. Some choke-points are okay, others are awful. Lakeville Valley is an example of the latter. Choke-points often favour the defender, which makes attacking a problem. The problem with not attacking is that it usually cedes momentum to your opponent and allows him to maneuver, flank and just generally envelop you. This is bad. As the old saying goes, a good offence is the best defence.

Keep in mind that the above list is pretty general and that some good spots include bad features. The trick is to evaluate a spot and determine if it's benefits outweigh it's negatives.

 

For example, the hill-top on Mines qualifies as a good spot because even though it's excessively high, it has good cover (But not too much of it) and exit routes. If the hill-top on mines was more open it would be a bad spot. Similarly, it it was completely closed in it would also be a bad spot. If the hill leading up to it was steeper it would be a bad spot. If it and the hill leading up to it was covered in woods it would also be a weaker spot. If there were multiple routes up it would also be a weaker spot.

 

And so on.

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Actually, the first attribute of a bad place to go on a map is one which has no strategic advantage in providing map control. The attributes you listed can contribute to this.

 

I suppose...

 

That's a pretty general way to look at it though :-)

 

Thinking about why a spot is bad beyond that it is bad is important, though. 

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The reasons why Lakeville valley is a bad idea are two-fold:

  1. First, the terrain is very poor due to it being swampy. I think a lot of people who go there either don't realise this (It's their first time) or they just fail to recall this (It's not their first time). This is probably compounded by the fact that only one other map in rotation right now  (Karelia) has any large swampy terrain section so I suspect a lot of players simply don't know what swampy terrain is and don't understand why their tanks are moving so slowly.
  2. Second, and most important, the valley favours the defender. In order to attack through the valley you need to push up-hill, through poor terrain, a narrow choke-point and expose yourself to fire before you can fire in return. Pushing valley involves giving your opponent free shots and this is ALWAYS a bad idea. Any choice that involves ceding first-strike to the opponent is a bad choice unless you are 100% sure they can't penetrate you or track you.

 

 

There's a third one.  The lake road at both ends offers very good cover for a tank to spot or fire into and reset the cap, and both caps are very open from the city side.

 

It's very hard to grind through the valley and keep the base unless you've also won the city, it's easy to reset from that side.

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Honestly, I have seen Lakeville valley push work before. But that's only if some people actually understood how to push.

 

There was one time my team had fricken 10 tanks on the valley but they were held up by 2-3 TDs. Because of their ignorance (I tried many times to plea with them to go city but they refuse to obey), I decided to encourage my team to just push saying, "Take a hit when you crest up, then get close and over run the enemies."

 

Nope. City was gone and our fricken team was still stuck at the southern choke of the valley. They didn't even TRY to push. All they did was hold up at the choke and peek-up-booing while slowly disintegrated by the enemy.

 

This incident was probably the most excruciating moment I have ever experienced. I have never raged so much in any other battles because of 10 useless tanks that did jack nothing on the valley.

 

In this situation, what would you do? I believe I chose a poor decision by going to the city with couple teammates and then getting slaughtered.

 

Perhaps next time I should lemming with the valley (lead the charge)? Or hold at base?

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I'm not sure there is a good option in that circumstance Whee.  I know that those times where I've tried to get things moving by "leading the charge", the pubs just sit there anyway.  Doesn't make a difference if I say "ok, we need to push the issue, lets go" (or the like) or if I just do it.  Once they go into "hunker down" mode,they're not changing from it. (I'm talking in general, only time I ever led a successful Valley push involved my Porsche Tiger (in a 7), a Steel Wall, the medal you get for taking crit hits and my top XP battle ever at the time.)

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I'm not sure there is a good option in that circumstance Whee.  I know that those times where I've tried to get things moving by "leading the charge", the pubs just sit there anyway.  Doesn't make a difference if I say "ok, we need to push the issue, lets go" (or the like) or if I just do it.  Once they go into "hunker down" mode,they're not changing from it. (I'm talking in general, only time I ever led a successful Valley push involved my Porsche Tiger (in a 7), a Steel Wall, the medal you get for taking crit hits and my top XP battle ever at the time.)

 

Anything is worth trying. If you know that your chance to win in the battle is absolutely slim, anything that gives you a possible chance to win should be attempted.

 

Actually, I have witnessed moments when I lead a charge. I triggered the snowball effect on an enemy team, even if it costs my tank. That said, I try to resort doing that in desperate situations.

 

I believe it has to be the mentality of pubs since either they are bothered by repair bills or that they are ignorant. I don't mind taking hits for my allies to advance through key objectives. But, due to the nature of pubs, often times it's not possible. But it's worth a try IMO if there's no other alternative.

 

You die trying at least.

 

Btw my grammar is terrible. I can't make a better wording out of it.

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Thanks Okeano, I think map strategy was one of the places I was failing at. One question though, on Murovanka, what do you do if you're advancing down 1 and 2 line, and you under fire from camoed up tanks/TDs on A1/A2? And is D1 is viable passive scouting spot? I've never seen anyone do it successfully, at least in a random battle.

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It's in the newbie forum for this reason. It's meant for people who are new and looking to start improving. This is probably the first step.

  I mentioned Erlenberg a couple of pages back. Abby I mainly play 2 line with occasional middle depending on the situation. Lakeville really depends on where enemies are in the city. I see people pushing up to the church for extended preiod of time, but I usually use it as a check point instead of the base.

 

Case in point.  I'm brand new.  This was the first thing I read on the forum.

 

Hopefully it will help me.

Thanks.

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Honestly, I have seen Lakeville valley push work before. But that's only if some people actually understood how to push.

 

There was one time my team had fricken 10 tanks on the valley but they were held up by 2-3 TDs. Because of their ignorance (I tried many times to plea with them to go city but they refuse to obey), I decided to encourage my team to just push saying, "Take a hit when you crest up, then get close and over run the enemies."

 

Nope. City was gone and our fricken team was still stuck at the southern choke of the valley. They didn't even TRY to push. All they did was hold up at the choke and peek-up-booing while slowly disintegrated by the enemy.

 

This incident was probably the most excruciating moment I have ever experienced. I have never raged so much in any other battles because of 10 useless tanks that did jack nothing on the valley.

 

In this situation, what would you do? I believe I chose a poor decision by going to the city with couple teammates and then getting slaughtered.

 

Perhaps next time I should lemming with the valley (lead the charge)? Or hold at base?

 

That's the whole reason why valley sucks. Pubs are too dumb to coordinate a push. And at the rare chance that they do coordinate a push, the soft ground bogs you down. Even after pushing through you still have to climb to base at one location so it's easily choke pointed. Most enemy tanks can make back to their base in the time it takes you to drive across half of the valley. The only times it'll work is when enemy teams get tunnel visioned in the city and at the same time get stalled by a few tanks. 

 

There's nothing you can do other than all cap swear at them and exit the game after dying from sitting in cover near base and do what you can.

 

Thanks Okeano, I think map strategy was one of the places I was failing at. One question though, on Murovanka, what do you do if you're advancing down 1 and 2 line, and you under fire from camoed up tanks/TDs on A1/A2? And is D1 is viable passive scouting spot? I've never seen anyone do it successfully, at least in a random battle.

 

I usually try to get up the 2 line fast and get at least a shot or so into enemy meds that I'm expecting to go there. From there there's little you can do really. It's a very powerful spot. I take cover at the E3 reverse hill and hope to get rid of them as they peek out, or tell arty to focus there. I've abused the A2 bush for invisi-snipe down the line to the point of almost feeling bad. 

 

I never tried D1, and that area doesn't really need passive spotting. Most tanks are spotting each other through hill by proxy. Even if D1 is vialble to spot, you'll die in seconds if you get spotted by their hill guys on the right since there's nowhere to retreat to but drive to the right and be in firing lane for most of that. It's the same principle for that bush towards north edge of B2 at the turn of the road, where you can sit back far enough from the bush to shoot without seen and have clear shots all the way down the line, but you're screwed if they happen to spot you.

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Redshire is spot on, some others are arguable.

 

I always thought that in Redshire, you either occupy or control G 4 or you are dead. With my Vk3601H, I mostly try to go there. It's a race from either spawn, but you control (spot) both sides of the hill, you can spot and hit north end of the hill as well, and you have a good view  south to the small hills, with a flanking shot at any tank showing a glim

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I always thought that in Redshire, you either occupy or control G 4 or you are dead. With my Vk3601H, I mostly try to go there. It's a race from either spawn, but you control (spot) both sides of the hill, you can spot and hit north end of the hill as well, and you have a good view  south to the small hills, with a flanking shot at any tank showing a glim

How do you "controlling" it from north spawn? Only way I can think of is to spot them while remain unspotted, even then they're not always shootable. It's a pretty safe control from the south spawn. 

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If I play them enough, probably. At this point I'm finding very little motivation to play the game. I'll probably at least relook at current maps we have that I don't have in the OP and see what I could add to them.

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I'll still post on this forum just probably won't play the game much. There's nothing I know that plenty of others on here don't know already but I'll do what I can. I'm thinking of writing a long guide on gun depression and hull down since I haven't came across one.

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