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CraBeatOff

Do you EVEN 90?

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15 minutes ago, Kolni said:

I might have been unclear. On any of those maps I mentioned (short of possibly Sand River as the LT mobility to quickly control the south is something I didn't consider while writing) a light tank is either stuck playing one of the more unimportant parts of the map or simply being outperformed by other classes. That's where my issue lies with the light tanks. 

 

Go El Halluf south spawn, 5 T9s and 10 T8s. I just don't see a way where the LT will actively contribute more than others because of lack of armour, lacking penetration and alpha means that you won't be able to engage anything without teammates ahead of you in the northwest, and the odds are that the actual contribution in damage from that light was redundant anyway. So what other plays are there? The northwest is everything on this map and LTs are the class with the absolute least power to influence it. All it takes is one TD camping base which means that the rush down to the small city starts to there and ends there as you're pushing up hill and into crossfires. Middle plays are also the same, sorta works early but you're completely committed and the only way to progress from there is to rely on your team winning somewhere else or hoping that the area is uncontested regardless if you have a bush or not to stay unspotted since you're stuck there. On this map I'm pretty sure I would outperform the BC12t or HWK12 in a Mutz, FV4202, M4A1 Rev or M46 KR 9/10 times even in T10 MM. Losing the ability to directly impact the most important part of the map is personally why I put El Halluf. LT beach yolos from north generally work out pretty well though since you're down before TDs can get shots and you have a much better progression up into the base, but it's still not worth giving up a gun in the north for in my opinion. 

Ruinberg's the same. I don't know if the EU meta is different as I've seen some NA streamers still fare okay-ish playing the field/village from south but for us it's just an autoaccepted loss of the flank 75% of the time. You need something that can play the city. Meds can do that, HTs can do that, TDs can do that. LTs can do it too but trading well becomes double the struggle.

Literally any play a light tank can do on Abbey a medium can do just as well if not better, turret armour and more HP goes a much longer way. You're mobile enough to contest 8 line for vision regardless as the TDs are too slow to catch mediums, or anything with a big gun at all in general. The one exception is being able to spot the TDs from the Abbey into the south base on the outer path facing there without getting spotted, and then you're the only one able to shoot it anyway. 

Airfield is a trading map regardless of where you play. B line play on rocks is too risky and you're stuck after doing it, so it goes out the window. 

I have arguments for all the other maps too, with Sand River being an oversight on my end. 

On maps like Redshire, Muro, Steppes, and even an Overlord layout type where your camo won't lock things down directly but prevent unpunished pokes is where LTs really shine to me. Where the engagement ranges are 400 meters and your camo actually lets you move up unspotted unlike other targets even against VR specced tanks. There's just not enough of those maps or scenarios in the games current meta to really warrant it to me if winning is everything. I'll always be better off in a medium where I can simply just punch through by brute force and directly impact my games. 

Regarding Prokh I'm saying it because while 1 line to contest since the middle falls without it, it's the one area where LTs outperform other classes since they can move up much further. And it's already biased from one side, and it takes one yolotard for it to break. We might not see eye to eye on this, but I'm not going to let my teammates make the decision of how good my game is going to be. I will always prefer a potent gun and relative armour over pseudo armour (mobility+size combo) simply because I can control it much better. 

 

And of course LT gameplay is risky, that's like the main reason to play them. You take bigger risks but you also reap the rewards when doing it well. The fun comes from that :doge: 

 You are clearly a better player than me so you probably understand things that I dont. Feel free to correct me ofc. 

To my experience it feels like you treat LTs as faster mediums which is something they are not. I'll agree with you on maps like Ensk and Himmelsdorf Mediums will be better. And as you said yourself you depend on you allies to deal the dmg. You use them as the gun you dont have. This is how it is you either enjoy it or not.

But I also do not understand how you can think a LT is good on maps like Overlord where it is extremely hard to spot without getting outspotted and where your tanks hardly shoot the campers most of the time. To me that map is one of the worst for Lights because it is very risky and mediums can get the same resoults.

On Ruinberg south you simply spot tanks in the field so that city can shoot them, gain HP advantage, then work the field/houses by using the your TDs camping in the back and finally spot the campers in the back.

 

 

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2 hours ago, nabucodonsor said:

 You are clearly a better player than me so you probably understand things that I dont. Feel free to correct me ofc. 

To my experience it feels like you treat LTs as faster mediums which is something they are not. I'll agree with you on maps like Ensk and Himmelsdorf Mediums will be better. And as you said yourself you depend on you allies to deal the dmg. You use them as the gun you dont have. This is how it is you either enjoy it or not.

But I also do not understand how you can think a LT is good on maps like Overlord where it is extremely hard to spot without getting outspotted and where your tanks hardly shoot the campers most of the time. To me that map is one of the worst for Lights because it is very risky and mediums can get the same resoults.

On Ruinberg south you simply spot tanks in the field so that city can shoot them, gain HP advantage, then work the field/houses by using the your TDs camping in the back and finally spot the campers in the back.

I do. You're doing the same things anyway but just in different ways. You're not just going where the HP stacks up, you're going where you start controlling the map and to further advance it. Simple as that. I'm not going to crack down on the LT gameplay itself as it basically comes down to preference anyway, but the light tanks are almost universally inferior which is where I have a problem with them. When there's a corridor meta, vision importance fading and blind coin flip lane pushes being where all the games get decided then the actual usefulness of lights grow even more dim, they're out of meta and need enough maps that allow for real light tank gameplay to really warrant playing them and having a winning mindset in mind at the same time. I honestly don't feel like going into a game with a light tank will do my team a favour, especially not in tier 10 when only the T-100 has real value thanks to its mobility and size actually allowing for real flanks. They compensated that by giving it by far the worst gun in tier on penetration and I don't really think it was that necessary. What LTs need are more maps with mixing lanes that rely on vision to keep them valuable enough in a team so they can stop having to sub for mediums and actually do clean LT gameplay and be as effective as any other tank when playing their role well. 

Relying on your team is always such a terrible idea. Have you ever taken a good hard look at the average teammate? He's terrible. I'm not putting my game, the win, or anything really in the hands of that player. I'll spot where it's necessary and will actually give something, but most of the time I find myself engaging tanks anyway instead of sticking to pure map control gameplay like the really old Chaffee days where that was a valid strategy. I'm not going to go out of my way to spot for the average bot to shoot. I'm better off spotting for me to shoot. If I'm not sinking my own damage in then how can I influence an engagement otherwise? There's flanking and stuff like that but that's not really exclusive to lights. Where you need to be is ahead of your team, pushing up the lines of vision so your team can move further in general. There's just too few maps that allow for it. I've always played my lights as paper meds with a camo cushion and that's where my winrates in them come from, and while this is probably not the conventional way of playing LTs, it's the one that generally helps to win the most (at least for me it did.) It was pretty interesting back in the day to watch X3N4 play the RU251 back in the day as T8 and play it pretty much identically to a CDC for easily the highest results on the server. 

 

Overlord took a while to figure out, but it features decent bushes on both sides that hold up camo-wise for LTs. I took it as an example because this is a play that only LTs can do. It's a pretty good one too. 

With EU Ruinberg meta that will get you killed in less than 2 minutes. Spotting the people redlining the heavy crossing from the westmost part of the middle is risking shots since connections from the middle are a thing with basically anything again. With the shape of the middle it's hard to contest from the south meaning that you're forced into the 9 line part of the village unless you want stay permaspotted and there you're stuck fighting just like a regular medium again. It's the one LT problem over and over that will keep me turned off regarding them

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3 hours ago, Kolni said:

I might have been unclear. On any of those maps I mentioned (short of possibly Sand River as the LT mobility to quickly control the south is something I didn't consider while writing) a light tank is either stuck playing one of the more unimportant parts of the map or simply being outperformed by other classes. That's where my issue lies with the light tanks. 

 

Go El Halluf south spawn, 5 T9s and 10 T8s. I just don't see a way where the LT will actively contribute more than others because of lack of armour, lacking penetration and alpha means that you won't be able to engage anything without teammates ahead of you in the northwest, and the odds are that the actual contribution in damage from that light was redundant anyway. So what other plays are there? The northwest is everything on this map and LTs are the class with the absolute least power to influence it. All it takes is one TD camping base which means that the rush down to the small city starts to there and ends there as you're pushing up hill and into crossfires. Middle plays are also the same, sorta works early but you're completely committed and the only way to progress from there is to rely on your team winning somewhere else or hoping that the area is uncontested regardless if you have a bush or not to stay unspotted since you're stuck there. On this map I'm pretty sure I would outperform the BC12t or HWK12 in a Mutz, FV4202, M4A1 Rev or M46 KR 9/10 times even in T10 MM. Losing the ability to directly impact the most important part of the map is personally why I put El Halluf. LT beach yolos from north generally work out pretty well though since you're down before TDs can get shots and you have a much better progression up into the base, but it's still not worth giving up a gun in the north for in my opinion. 

Ruinberg's the same. I don't know if the EU meta is different as I've seen some NA streamers still fare okay-ish playing the field/village from south but for us it's just an autoaccepted loss of the flank 75% of the time. You need something that can play the city. Meds can do that, HTs can do that, TDs can do that. LTs can do it too but trading well becomes double the struggle.

Literally any play a light tank can do on Abbey a medium can do just as well if not better, turret armour and more HP goes a much longer way. You're mobile enough to contest 8 line for vision regardless as the TDs are too slow to catch mediums, or anything with a big gun at all in general. The one exception is being able to spot the TDs from the Abbey into the south base on the outer path facing there without getting spotted, and then you're the only one able to shoot it anyway. 

Airfield is a trading map regardless of where you play. B line play on rocks is too risky and you're stuck after doing it, so it goes out the window. 

I have arguments for all the other maps too, with Sand River being an oversight on my end. 

On maps like Redshire, Muro, Steppes, and even an Overlord layout type where your camo won't lock things down directly but prevent unpunished pokes is where LTs really shine to me. Where the engagement ranges are 400 meters and your camo actually lets you move up unspotted unlike other targets even against VR specced tanks. There's just not enough of those maps or scenarios in the games current meta to really warrant it to me if winning is everything. I'll always be better off in a medium where I can simply just punch through by brute force and directly impact my games. 

Regarding Prokh I'm saying it because while 1 line to contest since the middle falls without it, it's the one area where LTs outperform other classes since they can move up much further. And it's already biased from one side, and it takes one yolotard for it to break. We might not see eye to eye on this, but I'm not going to let my teammates make the decision of how good my game is going to be. I will always prefer a potent gun and relative armour over pseudo armour (mobility+size combo) simply because I can control it much better. 

 

And of course LT gameplay is risky, that's like the main reason to play them. You take bigger risks but you also reap the rewards when doing it well. The fun comes from that :doge: 

I'll give you that El Halluf and Ruinberg are hard, but the extreme stealth of the ELC EVEN 90 gives it something to work with, where other LTs aren't able to work. Literally the entire middle of El Halluf is camo over and if you're in the river you're nigh un-hittable. I don't try to push, I just try to control the space with vision, and let my team do the work. Its possible that this is an NA thing, not an EU thing. We do get the occasional completely clueless player, but for the most part NA players are hitting easy shots on stuff that is spotted. And then things die quickly. If the enemy meds rush the low ground...I'm never letting them out. They're going to be spotted every single poke, and their TD support also. And when they're worn down I'm going to go finish them off or else cross and begin gettin' butts and arty. This isn't an important part of the map - I agree. But neither base is easy to push into from NW when the TDs are undistracted and unflanked. http://wotreplays.eu/site/4132368#el_halluf-crabeatoff-elc_even_90 Enemy wins brawl, but instead of a blowout, I'm able to get a few clips/spots in, clear my side of the map. Low hp tanks and lots of space. Grand. 

Airfield is broken OP in the ELC. You are unspottable on B line. It doesn't work even in the T-100LT, but the ELC makes it work, the extra 4.5% camo and the size. Every rock is cover, but not just like "cover from this 1 angle) but cover from 2 angles and sufficient to mitigate all but the biggest splashing arty. I don't even fire most of the time, except when the TD perch gets lit. I just push them back, corral them with vision, and then my team moves up. The frustration is practically palpable. http://wotreplays.eu/site/4132368#el_halluf-crabeatoff-elc_even_90

Ruinberg...south is tough. I've had success. Its just...so...small. The smallness gives the innate camo rating, but it also gives you the ability to straight up hide. The ditch that kinda hides a medium becomes full defilade. The bushes that cover no other tank suddenly become full concealment - control your proxy and you're fine. The positions to shoot the backs of houses that would get you killed by A line TD nest ARE BELOW THE RIDGE FOR YOU. Pull around, drop 440-660 and dance away. You can poke your turret over and spot their A line TDs with binos, sending them scurrying and giving your team confidence. http://wotreplays.eu/site/4132348#winterberg-crabeatoff-elc_even_90

I think you nailed it here Kolni

 

23 minutes ago, Kolni said:

I'm not putting my game, the win, or anything really in the hands of that player. I'll spot where it's necessary and will actually give something, but most of the time I find myself engaging tanks anyway instead of sticking to pure map control gameplay like the really old Chaffee days where that was a valid strategy. I'm not going to go out of my way to spot for the average bot to shoot. I'm better off spotting for me to shoot. If I'm not sinking my own damage in then how can I influence an engagement otherwise? There's flanking and stuff like that but that's not really exclusive to lights. Where you need to be is ahead of your team, pushing up the lines of vision so your team can move further in general. There's just too few maps that allow for it. I

I'm not a good enough shot to carry off damage, so my slide into this niche is of necessity, and I recognize that limitation. Would I play your game if I could? Probably, but Garbad raised me up, so maybe not. And NA just isn't quite the same as EU in the players. I was watching Smylee stream a week or so ago and he noted "I think I win because the enemy spends so much time and energy trying to kill ME that they ignore my team, and my team actually does damage". This was during the FV4202 3 mark, but during the Sheridan sessions that followed he was literally dictating the flow of the game around the exposure and resulting enemy reaction to his Sheridan. Now thats not precisely the best example, as Smylee plays his LTs in much of the paper medium fashion BUT there is a decided effort to yolo suicide him with reliable regularity. Its not something I've seen extensively in watching skill4ltu play LTs. I've not caught many other EU streams in the last ~6 months though. Meta comments aside...I do use my team. I don't count on them, but as soon as they demonstrate any kind of capability I'll read and play off their positions (while absolutely minimizing my risks). I play the pure map control gameplay like the really old Chaffee days, and the ELC 90 in particular can do map control things in a way that larger less stealthy lights can't. Its the size of the Bulldog turret...

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@CraBeatOff You posted the El Halluf replay twice instead of Airfield. I think I found it.

http://wotreplays.eu/site/4132387#airfield-crabeatoff-elc_even_90

Edit: The damage in that one would have been obscene if the EVEN 90 had tier 8 DPM. Also, PuppetRider[SHIRE] is an asshole. May he rot in hell.

Edit 2: I couldn't believe the 430v2 and Cent couldn't spot you through those bushes while firing at E8 on Winterburg. Crazy.

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The thing about light tanks is that getting the full potential out of them requires substantially different play style than any other class. If you watch someone good like Crab play a light tank, you will see that you simply can't do the same things with a medium. And getting sucked in to playing a light tank like a medium will only get mediocre results.

It used to be that the light tank's biggest advantage was camo and vision. But with the light tank re-balance lights got a new strength - mobility. Don't underestimate the value of being able to put your tank into action on the opposite side of the map in under 60 seconds. If an engagement isn't favorable, just decline it. If the other side needs to win fast go there and make it happen. The ability of a light tank to get somewhere even 20 seconds faster than a medium makes all the difference.

Essentially, light tank mobility has reached the level where you can act as a force multiplier across the map. It's even more apparent when you platoon with another (good) light tank. Turn a 3v3 into a 5v3 and you suddenly win overwhelmingly.

Combine that with the strengths it still has in vision control. Yes, a lot of engagements happen in corridors, but on a lot of maps those corridors open up to areas where vision becomes valuable. Sure, sometimes the enemy will win the corridor so hard that you just can't come back from it, but there's many times where you can lose it pretty badly and still pull out the win.

The strength of mobility opens up even more as the number of tanks decreases. If a hole opens up anywhere on the map a light tank can take advantage of it substantially faster than a medium. This is why maps like Abbey, while not particularly great for anything, is actually not that bad for light tanks. If you just avoid dying early the map will open up and the fun times begin.

The EVEN 90 is fun because it just takes these light tank strengths to an extreme. Speed and stealth and size let you pull off some silly things. Last night from Fisherman's bay south I drove over the middle and hid in a bush on their side of the map right at the start. We ended up losing the 1 line pretty badly (they still had 4 tanks alive) but then I just drove through bushes, killed enemy tanks from <100m without getting lit, cleaned up the entire side and won the game.

Anyways, my own experience is that once I stopped just trying to be a bad medium with good camo, a new style of play opened up which made previously bad maps into good maps. I'll argue that Windstorm and Kharkov are actually solid LT maps. Erlenberg and Sand River are excellent LT maps. Airfield and Abbey are garbage maps but LTs don't fare to bad on them (more fun IMO). A few maps still just suck, Ruinberg south and Pilsen can die in a fire. Unless you're in a T49 in which case you can play ANY map effectively. HEmeta2018!

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7 hours ago, crapcannon said:

Yea or Nay for camo net for a brand new crew? Or camo value so good it's not even necessary?

I didn't by one, but if I did, then I sure as hell wouldn't want to play it with a fresh crew. Crew skills (e.g. camo & SA/recon) make a huge difference if you're going to try to pull off shenanigans like @CraBeatOff does in those replays.

Also, the EVEN 90 benefits way more from the crew skills versus a camo net as opposed to something like a Grille 15. The camo net adds a fixed bonus whereas the crew skills are multiplicative. So, a tank with good base camo benefits much more from the skill than a tank with bad base camo.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong on that. I'm reciting from memory.

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I'll admit that I underestimated how much of an advantage it is to have such a tiny silhouette. Not easy to quantify how much protection it really offers, but its a lot. It lets the EVEN get away with some stunts that other light tanks could only dream of. Still, I happen to lean heavily on the dakka and those gun handling traits make me crai erryteim. It wouldn't break the meta if that 90mm had a 20 second base reload, or if the aim time wasn't cancer. Even both for that matter.

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On 1/31/2018 at 0:32 PM, Fulvin said:

@CraBeatOff do you think it'd be playable without BIA or vision skills? my crew only has 6th and full camo, so carbon's binocs setup would give measly 405m vr on the move, which seems super low to me

on the move VR isn't important.

Your reload is long enough that you can easily stroll into any bush between your reload and wait that 3 seconds.

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I think this tank highlights the tensions lesser players like me face when playing scouts generally.  We want to play like @Kolni, b/c you keep thinking, "I'm not doing damage, I'm not helping my team," but I might argue that requires a higher skill level someone like me simply does not possess, and we really should play more like @CraBeatOff or @CarbonWard - when you've got a good bush and are lighting stuff up...don't freaking shoot.  Just don't.  I keep having to remember what Crab tried to beat into my head one game - "light tanks don't trade, they run."  And while the sheer utterly ridiculous size of this thing makes it a phenomenally hard target at any kind of range, better players learn to splash HE nearby and blow your tracks off, and then you're toast.  So it seems like it's a tank in which you want to avoid getting lit at all costs, and that means showing superhuman levels of restraint and patience at times.

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Speed is shit to be honest, when you are used to 30 - 35 hp/ton of the new lights, 23 hp/ton feels horribly sluggish to me, especially as it slows to a crawl on tough terrain and virtually stops even hitting small trees. 

Also for it's inferiority to other lights the camo is nowhere near high enough, we are talking about 30m more off a 450m view range tank compared to the T92 which is a much superior tank, 6% camo for being literally 50% of the tank in every other way, not worth it. 

Clip reload down to at least 25s base if not more, aim time down, hp/ton up. Too many maps and situations where this tank is less use than many tier 6s. 

 

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I finally brought it. The first few games I was really angry about myself to throw more money at WG and thought the bad reviews on Youtube were right after all. But now after 100 battles or so and beeing close to 2nd Mark I finnaly aced it and I am really happy about it. I have the feeling i finnally grasp how this tank works (As usual a lot of thanks to the WoTLabs Community and @CraBeatOff's replays in particular).

My acetanker is quite the oposite though... 0 spotting but still a little bit proud :)

Though this thing is really a lot of fun, I think the better Players and the Unicorns here are right, that this is nothing for the average pubbie. I think it should recieve some buffs too. Aimtime and clip reload buff would be really nice.

Does anyone know if this thing would profit from iVertstabs or iVents? I have my first 5k bonds too.

https://imgur.com/a/WcCdC

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I wouldn't object to 1700 dpm and 2.5 aimtime. It would become a lot easier to play. Or another 5 hp/t.

Ivstab and ivents would benefit it. Vstab would be most noticeable. Vents is only good for 0.3% camo and 5 view range - but it adds up. 

I do hope they buff it.

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Oh god, I bought one a few days ago, and its so small that it can get away with so much. You can get to places without getting lit because its smaller than the terrain, then pop up in a bush 300m away from the enemy and still not be seen. Watching them get confused when they get lit is hilarious, and then watching them get confused when they think they are unlit and get shot is even better.

 

Its ability to dodge is also amazing, but my absolute favourite thing is getting yourself beside some tall heavies and watching them try to depress their gun to shoot you. 

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On 26/01/2018 at 8:40 AM, CraBeatOff said:

 

This tank is not good. It is however funny.

 

 

Just bought it. Handful of games, all bottom tier. My main question regarding this tank remains: is a one trick pony funny enough? As a tech tree anomaly it would be a keeper, no question. But I am questioning my decision to pay real coin for it.

ps buff it’s dpm and call it even (sorry).

pps so this tank brings tier 5-6 spotting shenanigans/tactics to high tiers thanks to @CarbonWard pointing out the superiority of binos over optics (never would've even crossed my mind to run them). Same dpm as the AMX 12t as well... 

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On 2.02.2018 at 6:48 AM, CarbonWard said:

on the move VR isn't important.

Your reload is long enough that you can easily stroll into any bush between your reload and wait that 3 seconds.

But there are positions that only work on the move like ridge surfing on some maps (fiery salient for example)

On 2.02.2018 at 1:25 PM, tajj7 said:

Speed is shit to be honest, when you are used to 30 - 35 hp/ton of the new lights, 23 hp/ton feels horribly sluggish to me, especially as it slows to a crawl on tough terrain and virtually stops even hitting small trees. 

Also for it's inferiority to other lights the camo is nowhere near high enough, we are talking about 30m more off a 450m view range tank compared to the T92 which is a much superior tank, 6% camo for being literally 50% of the tank in every other way, not worth it. 

Clip reload down to at least 25s base if not more, aim time down, hp/ton up. Too many maps and situations where this tank is less use than many tier 6s. 

 

Type64 has similar hp/t and speed , no?

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28 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

But there are positions that only work on the move like ridge surfing on some maps (fiery salient for example)

Type64 has similar hp/t and speed , no?

Yea but in ridge surfing you're primarily trying to keep middle lit - and those targets are plenty close. It is nice to spot firing TDs on rails and 1 at max view but you can dig them out later. With perks vents and food you still get 420+ vr. Old prem LTs have this hp/t yes.

@sohojacques it's got a couple of tricks. @MagicalFlyingFox listed a few. A 660 spike is another trick. So is 9 degrees depression.

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