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FlorbFnarb

Am I the only one that likes 3/5/7?

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6 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

You are looking at it from the wrong POV. While not being able to fight vs tanks 2 tiers up is a big problem  a low number of tanks higher up is a bigger problem than you think because the less +2 tanks there are the more important they are. So if you are in an easy 8 and your team gets one 45% top tier player when there are 3 top tiers is a bigger problem than if there are 5 top tiers. All you need to lose is to have top tier arty + 2 sub 50% top tier players.

 

Also yeah if there is more top tiers you can't carry as hard but it also means there is less pressure on individual players. Not only it means you need to do less as a bottom tier tank but also you are less often bottom tier. 

But if we go back to the old MM, which was, effectively, more like 8/4/3 or 10/3/2, we'd be saying we want the top tier to be numerous in order to limit the effects of bad top tier players...but we'd have to accept that when we're bottom tier we're all but useless in most cases.

 

I know of some tanks with good gold pen and good DPM which can credibly contribute while bottom tier in a 10/3/2 matchup, but I know a lot more which can credibly contribute from bottom tier in a 3/5/7 setup.

6 minutes ago, lavawing said:

Tier 8 misery can be broken down into a few problems, for which 3 5 7 is only partially to blame.

1: powergap, i.e. tier 8s too shit, 'OP' tier 10s (OP in quotation marks because OP is the new balance). also powergap between tier 8 and 9 is hyuuge. tier 8 meds in general being shit, tier 10s having no frontal weakspots against tier 8s, etc

2: MM prioritising 3 5 7 means tier 8s have a natural tendency to be bottom tier more often than not

3: tier 8 being popular, exacerbating #2. also because grinding creds at tier 8 is mandatory to offset tier 10 HEATfests

4: corridor maps means that although there are 7 other tier 8 shits on the other team, chances are you are going to meet their 430U/5A/268V4 long before you dig out their Progettoes

5: conversely, tier 10s have too much sway. 3 5 7 is basically designed to let reds steamroll tier 8s and feel good about it. however when your reds are too red you feel bad and lose the game for no fault of your own. 

6: no subclasses within 3 5 7 means you get 430U versus Leo 1 and 268 4 vs 268, except the fact you get 3 top tiers magnifies the OP/shitness of your top tiers

7: too much consistency means you feel like you are always bottom tier (even if statistically there are 5 % of times when you are truly top tier with lower tiers to bully). I joke to the few friends I have who still play WoT that tier 8 is basically tier 9 now.
As a result you probably have to look at all of these problems individually before you can even start fixing it. Given that WG has the IQ of a donkey in PVS, I doubt they will be able to pull it off before the game dies.

I think all of this boils down to one thing:

WG needs to start shelving goddamn corridor maps where you have a bunch of hull-down, sidescraping, and peekabooming heavy tanks and heavy TDs, with extremely limited opporunities for mediums or lower tier tanks to flank around and shoot the top tier HTs/TDs someplace besides their upper glacis or gun mantlet.

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My thing with this is I would prefer to fight my same tier tanks more often than not. Yes it's fun to stomp lower tier tanks when I can, but what's the challenge of rolling my head on the keyboard in a tier 8 tank and stomping tier 6s in a mod 1? I would rather constantly fight tanks of my own tier, with having to fight +/- 1 fairly often then only worry about +/- 2 rarely when server pop is low or people are not playing a certain tier. This in theory fucks with lower tiers, but for the most part they already see +/- 1 which is better for newer players. Is this the perfect solution, no? Is this something WG could probably do right, I think so. 

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2 minutes ago, snowdude21325 said:

My thing with this is I would prefer to fight my same tier tanks more often than not. Yes it's fun to stomp lower tier tanks when I can, but what's the challenge of rolling my head on the keyboard in a tier 8 tank and stomping tier 6s in a mod 1? I would rather constantly fight tanks of my own tier, with having to fight +/- 1 fairly often then only worry about +/- 2 rarely when server pop is low or people are not playing a certain tier. This in theory fucks with lower tiers, but for the most part they already see +/- 1 which is better for newer players. Is this the perfect solution, no? Is this something WG could probably do right, I think so. 

I've never really seen a problem with fighting tanks two tiers higher.  There are a number of tanks that do so well, especially if there's only a couple of them.

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Armor had been largely irrelevant for years, now WG brought in Type 5s etc and other no weak spot bullshit mobiles which screwed tier 8 over. I think 3/5/7 would have worked a few years ago in the med meta.

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12 minutes ago, Ham_ said:

Armor had been largely irrelevant for years, now WG brought in Type 5s etc and other no weak spot bullshit mobiles which screwed tier 8 over. I think 3/5/7 would have worked a few years ago in the med meta.

How was armor irrelevant?  I’m sure you could name several tanks in each tier with armor that was very relevant.

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The real problem is how stupid and broken the economy and armour work. EU has now reached test server levels of TD and arty play as consequence to the impenetrable heavies. And TDs are completely unbalanced and especially at higher tiers have too much alpha. Or camo. Or armour. So pubbies play it to avoid shooting gold and to do a shit ton of damage with one shot. But this makes it horrible to play as one mistake punishes you way too much. 

Also I see too many LTs per game and that is annoying when you are one of them as they simply limit your scouting possibilities.

I think they should also limit the number of LTs and TDs as they did with arty.  

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34 minutes ago, nabucodonsor said:

The real problem is how stupid and broken the economy and armour work. EU has now reached test server levels of TD and arty play as consequence to the impenetrable heavies. And TDs are completely unbalanced and especially at higher tiers have too much alpha. Or camo. Or armour. So pubbies play it to avoid shooting gold and to do a shit ton of damage with one shot. But this makes it horrible to play as one mistake punishes you way too much. 

Also I see too many LTs per game and that is annoying when you are one of them as they simply limit your scouting possibilities.

I think they should also limit the number of LTs and TDs as they did with arty.  

Might not be a bad idea, although it doesn’t seem to be an issue in NA.

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4 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

I've never really seen a problem with fighting tanks two tiers higher.  There are a number of tanks that do so well, especially if there's only a couple of them.

Dude I really don't wanna be mean, but I need to insist on this. What do you consider a good game? Because I'm completely sure that my standards are not the same as yours. To put an example, I managed to 3 mark the Patriot 72 games only playing it during the 2 rentals I had it, first, when it came out, during old mm, and finished the mark a couple of months ago when I had it for 20 games rental or so. When I played it during old mm, I had almost 3k DPG during the first 50 games, which 3 of them had 0 dmg games due to disconnections, when the 1st rental ended mark was around 81% with 2900 dpg. When I had the chance to play it again. I lost 400 dpg... In 15 games or so.

After all that long time, I wouldn't say I play worse than I used to play, it's just I can't feel I'm doing ANYTHING to prevent a loss unless I'm top tier. And believe me I don't have any issue dealing with tier 10s with tier 8s, but I don't wanna have to be forced into that, which means using premium rounds 8/10 games. Back then I could keep +2.5k session with premium tanks and farm credits and have fun while doing it. Marked Mutz during rental, having to deal with old E5 back then. And I wouldn't get mad for having to deal with it. You could base your gameplan based on the line ups. More meds? Push X side, more TD's? Try to spot for them to get the assistance.  Bottom tier games were as common as mid/top tier games, at least in my opinion. But now? It gets even more frustrating that this game already is. And besides powercreep, which is another factor, but much smaller.

I can't find any answer but new MM, you have mirror-ish role lineups which are utter trash due to WG poor class balancing and your are bottom tier most of the time playing tier 8 and below, add powercreep to that and you have the perfect storm. You know what's one of the few things to know win conditions right now? XVM, yup the most cancerous mod in this game is the best thing you could use to know what's your better chance to win. Stick to the players who are better, it doesn't matter if your tank doesn't fit the role, you won't do shit if your X top tier sucks. bluenicum 430U/268V4/IS-7/Maus/S. Conquer/5A and some other tier 10s are instawin I'd say 80 to 90% of the time with 3/5/7, because right now if your top tier can't influence the game enough, you have minimal chance to win a game. No matter how good you are.

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Obviously a good game for me is gonna be a lot different than for you, but still.

I don't know though, if the team is that dependent upon the 3 top tier tanks, it seems like some of you think there's a bigger power game between tiers than I do.  I mean, do 3 top tier tanks really matter more than 5 middle tier and 7 bottom tier all put together?

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7 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

I've never really seen a problem with fighting tanks two tiers higher.  There are a number of tanks that do so well, especially if there's only a couple of them.

Try fighting a 430U with a T32.

Even with something wack like the T-44-100, its almost impossible to fight most tier 10 mediums without some sort of wolfpack happening.

2 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

Obviously a good game for me is gonna be a lot different than for you, but still.

I don't know though, if the team is that dependent upon the 3 top tier tanks, it seems like some of you think there's a bigger power game between tiers than I do.  I mean, do 3 top tier tanks really matter more than 5 middle tier and 7 bottom tier all put together?

The game in its current state is largely about attrition until the inevitable steamroll. Guess what spearheads that steamroll? Top tier (overarmoured) heavies (and overarmoured mediums/TDs). If you want to see for yourself how big the power game between tiers is, try bringing a 50B in pubs. You will lose games. A lot. And not (necessarily) by being bad.

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2 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

Obviously a good game for me is gonna be a lot different than for you, but still.

I don't know though, if the team is that dependent upon the 3 top tier tanks, it seems like some of you think there's a bigger power game between tiers than I do.  I mean, do 3 top tier tanks really matter more than 5 middle tier and 7 bottom tier all put together?

Bro, Maus/E3/Type5 are basically unstoppable on himmels/ensk/ruinberg, tier 8s can't do shit against them, some tier 9 can, but it won't be enough, I'd never try to go 1v1 with maus with a tier 9 in a city map , 430U/907/IS-7 are basically the same thing in maps like Live Oaks/Prok/Malinovka/Mountain Pass, SC/5A/277 bully tier 8s no matter which map you play. When you have a tier 8, no matter how good you are, there's no counterplay by yourself, you need to wait for the top tiers to do it for you, and try to help them. As I said before a bluenicum will stomp 8 or maybe 9 out 10 3/5/7  games in meta tier 10 tanks, the only reason why you won't see +65% WR very often, it's because 5/10 and one tier games aren't completely decided by the top tiers. Another thing to mention, for those who ask for +1/-1 mm, this is not a good idea either, full tier 10 games are not fun at all, at least in pubs. It might solve things for lower tiers, but tier 9 will be completely broken. Most of players will stay there because you have the closest gap between the higher tier, and decent one with the lower tier. Old mm was ok, not great, but much better, the only things that needed to be adjusted, were: 1) Artys per side 2) Lights per side 3) Superheavies per side (tier 8+)  and 4) Equal amount of tanks with same tier per side.

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New wave tier 10s are almost invulnerable to lower tiers and can be invulnerable to other tier 10s if positioned correctly. A Super Conq with insane DPM and turret will completely stomp over tier 8s and 9s who literally cannot do anything to it. A Maus, 268 4 and Type 5 will literally drive into any tier 8 and 9 and roll over them with no effort. Hell, the IS-7 will just demolish any tier 8 and most tier 9s for gods sakes. 

Then there is the 430U which is basically a 113 with more ammo and smaller, which will just hover around the map and tier 8s and 9s can do nothing. 

5A is similar to the Super conq where it will just DPM everything to death, but instead of being slow, it will 3 shot things quickly because it will get to places quickly.

Basically WG have given tier 10s either insane armour (Type 5/Maus/268 4), insane/stupid guns (5A, SConq, Progetto 65) or a mixture of both. Or have just brought out tanks superior to already existing tanks in every single facet (SConq, Polish thing, 430U) 

 

The comparison between tier 9s to 8s and 7s is also fucking shit for the 8s and 7s thanks to WG powercreep. Tier 7s have remained largely unchanged. Tier 8s have been buffed in an attempt to make them playable (it hasn't worked). Tier 9s have been ever so slightly buffed. The gap to tier 10s though has increased further with them being buffed to oblivion. What was once OP, the 5A is hardly the best tier 10 tank anymore. They just keep moving the goalposts further and further and further. 

Before

Tier 7 <<< Tier 8 << Tier 9 <<< Tier 10

Now

Tier 7 <<<<< Tier 8 <<< Tier 9 <<<<<< Tier 10

WG Balans.

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14 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

But if we go back to the old MM, which was, effectively, more like 8/4/3 or 10/3/2, we'd be saying we want the top tier to be numerous in order to limit the effects of bad top tier players...but we'd have to accept that when we're bottom tier we're all but useless in most cases.

 

The thing is you would be bottom tier much less often. Also the old MM wasn't effectively 8/4/3. It was sometimes 8/6/1 and sometimes 13/1/1. Also you would not be useless, in the long enough run you just need to be better than your corresponding tanks to have a positive influence on your win rate. It would simply be harder to farm on loses or carry. 

 

Also seriously when you are bottom tier in a bad tank and enemy top tier has good tanks + semi competent players you are screwed anyway unless it's an open map when you can spot them and get them shot. Seriously I didn't feel so much pressure to perform top tier before but also in old MM I rarely felt like "this is going to be like kicking puppies". Seriously I am grinding the Jap line for some moron now and a no skill crew Oni vs enemy team of tiger + arta + ikv 90 feels like an instawin unless something really surprising happens. 

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A Super Conq at least can very reliably be penned in the lower plate by lower tiers, or in the side. If a Sup Conq is hull down and doesn't want to move, you f8ck off, it doesn't matter if you are a tier 8 or a tier 10, about the only things that make a Super Conq or similar super strong when hull down tank reconsider their choices is Type 5 HE spam, arty focus or 183s HESHING them.

With the majority of players being complete crap, the majority of Super Conqs will appear not hull down or will show their sides or will wander into silly positions and they will bleed HP to anything they face with ease.

The issue for tier 8s is the rolling bunkers that just drive at you, Type 5s, Type 4s, Bobjects, Panzer VIIs, Maus etc. if you haven't got 300 pen prem rounds, you can basically go f yourself as there won't be room on the pokey maps the move around them (and hell some of these tanks are not that easy to pen in the side for lower tiers) and you know your top tiers, all 2/3 of them won't do crap to them either. 

Being -2 is about playing support and having people to work around, when you only have 3 top tiers and it's possible tanks like Strvs, grille 15s, arty, FV4005s, Leopards, etc. are in those top tiers, coupled with a player base who on average doesn't push or take up front line positions or take hits even in tanks that can, then chances are you have nothing to actually support.

But then you are a tier 8, you can't push yourself either.

Which is why I'd personally prefer to be in the 3-4 tier 8s in the battle against the 6-7 tier 10s because at least the chances of my getting a somewhat competent player together with a tank that I can actually support, are much higher. 

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13 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

How was armor irrelevant?  I’m sure you could name several tanks in each tier with armor that was very relevant.

Premium ammo was introduced for credits, and at that time all tanks had significant weak spots because everyone previously had to use regular ammo, so you could press 2 to pen every tank pretty much, all meds had weak hulls bar E-50 which instead had weak turret/LFP, now you have 430U with bullshit hull and russian turret, Maus wasn't buffed, Type 5 didnt exist, E-100 was most popular but it still had a LFP, bar on turret, flat turret. E3 was the only one that couldn't be penned reliably but was slow, now you have a E3 that keeps up with meds. That was prime vision + 330 HEAT era because maps allowed it and armor wasn't reliable enough to justify sacrificing mobility unless it was for hulldown ability. Back when hellcat/ leopard style tanks were fun as fuck.

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3 hours ago, hazzgar said:

The thing is you would be bottom tier much less often. Also the old MM wasn't effectively 8/4/3. It was sometimes 8/6/1 and sometimes 13/1/1. Also you would not be useless, in the long enough run you just need to be better than your corresponding tanks to have a positive influence on your win rate. It would simply be harder to farm on loses or carry. 

 

Also seriously when you are bottom tier in a bad tank and enemy top tier has good tanks + semi competent players you are screwed anyway unless it's an open map when you can spot them and get them shot. Seriously I didn't feel so much pressure to perform top tier before but also in old MM I rarely felt like "this is going to be like kicking puppies". Seriously I am grinding the Jap line for some moron now and a no skill crew Oni vs enemy team of tiger + arta + ikv 90 feels like an instawin unless something really surprising happens. 

Really?  Most of the O-Nis I see running around managed to get themselves pincushioned while contributing little.

1 hour ago, tajj7 said:

A Super Conq at least can very reliably be penned in the lower plate by lower tiers, or in the side. If a Sup Conq is hull down and doesn't want to move, you f8ck off, it doesn't matter if you are a tier 8 or a tier 10, about the only things that make a Super Conq or similar super strong when hull down tank reconsider their choices is Type 5 HE spam, arty focus or 183s HESHING them.

With the majority of players being complete crap, the majority of Super Conqs will appear not hull down or will show their sides or will wander into silly positions and they will bleed HP to anything they face with ease.

The issue for tier 8s is the rolling bunkers that just drive at you, Type 5s, Type 4s, Bobjects, Panzer VIIs, Maus etc. if you haven't got 300 pen prem rounds, you can basically go f yourself as there won't be room on the pokey maps the move around them (and hell some of these tanks are not that easy to pen in the side for lower tiers) and you know your top tiers, all 2/3 of them won't do crap to them either. 

Being -2 is about playing support and having people to work around, when you only have 3 top tiers and it's possible tanks like Strvs, grille 15s, arty, FV4005s, Leopards, etc. are in those top tiers, coupled with a player base who on average doesn't push or take up front line positions or take hits even in tanks that can, then chances are you have nothing to actually support.

But then you are a tier 8, you can't push yourself either.

Which is why I'd personally prefer to be in the 3-4 tier 8s in the battle against the 6-7 tier 10s because at least the chances of my getting a somewhat competent player together with a tank that I can actually support, are much higher. 

Yeah, again I think so much of this boils down to the goddamned maps.  So many are designed for top tier heavies to sidescrape and get hull down and shoot at each other from 50 meters that it isn't even funny.

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15 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

Really?  Most of the O-Nis I see running around managed to get themselves pincushioned while contributing little.

Yeah, again I think so much of this boils down to the goddamned maps.  So many are designed for top tier heavies to sidescrape and get hull down and shoot at each other from 50 meters that it isn't even funny.

Studzianki literally has two open hulldown spots 50m away in the industrial part, it's complete cancer, heaven for Jap heavies

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14 hours ago, mati_14 said:

Other stuff

I can't find any answer but new MM, you have mirror-ish role lineups which are utter trash due to WG poor class balancing and your are bottom tier most of the time playing tier 8 and below, add powercreep to that and you have the perfect storm. You know what's one of the few things to know win conditions right now? XVM, yup the most cancerous mod in this game is the best thing you could use to know what's your better chance to win. Stick to the players who are better, it doesn't matter if your tank doesn't fit the role, you won't do shit if your X top tier sucks. bluenicum 430U/268V4/IS-7/Maus/S. Conquer/5A and some other tier 10s are instawin I'd say 80 to 90% of the time with 3/5/7, because right now if your top tier can't influence the game enough, you have minimal chance to win a game. No matter how good you are.

You are right about this. In 3/5/7 if you're top three tanks are trash, you have to work extremely hard or get lucky to make it up. 

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39 minutes ago, Hellsfog said:

You are right about this. In 3/5/7 if you're top three tanks are trash, you have to work extremely hard or get lucky to make it up. 

Right...if the enemy team's top three aren't trash, of course.  I haven't run XVM in a very long time; is this really that frequent, that one team gets good top tier tanks and the other team trash players, and they get rolled?

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2 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

That map has some pretty open areas, though.  I haven't really studied it yet, are those spots flankable by meds?

Meds can brawl it out with other meds to flank around but theres large open areas that you have to cross... Where, you guessed it, TDs can fuck you over while you do.

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It's really not even about 3/5/7, it's about power creep. Two years ago a Centurian turret had 152mm of armor and a small, tough mantlet overlap zone. Now it has 252mm of armor and an autobounce forehead. Two years ago a Jackson could ~40% pen it with AP, 90% pen it with APCR. Now a Jackson can just fuck off, even gold is basically pointless, maybe 10% pen turf at best. That's the entire game now. It may not always be so blatant as pen vs. armor, sometimes the power is in a less quantifiable property such as mobility, but the gaps between tiers have gotten so bad it doesn't matter if the Cent is facing 1 Jackson or 5, he can still easily win. It's a joke now. That ludicrous power gap starts at tier 6 vs. 8 and stays completely pants-on-head retarded all the way up the tiers.

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2 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

Right...if the enemy team's top three aren't trash, of course.  I haven't run XVM in a very long time; is this really that frequent, that one team gets good top tier tanks and the other team trash players, and they get rolled?

It's an issue.  It's not common that there is a significant skill difference between the top three tanks. At least, not any more common than with any other group.  But you can feel the mismatch more. In my experience, it is more common that both sides have mediocre of sub-mediocre tier 10 players and if yours go full potato first, it is harder to win. 

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3 hours ago, Hellsfog said:

It's an issue.  It's not common that there is a significant skill difference between the top three tanks. At least, not any more common than with any other group.  But you can feel the mismatch more. In my experience, it is more common that both sides have mediocre of sub-mediocre tier 10 players and if yours go full potato first, it is harder to win. 

How ever over a large sample size the skill of your top tiers are irrelevant, everyone has to lose at least 30-40% remember.

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