CanadaGuy

Is win/loss part of the WN8?--if not it should be

27 posts in this topic

I have no idea how the WN8 formula works, but from what I've heard and found searching the web, it is mostly based on kills and damage dealt.

I believe it needs to have win/loss factored in as well, and here's why:

Mainly... The servers are full of stat padders that just want to get the best WN8 possible on their tank so they can sell their accounts (illegally) on Ebay and being able to claim they have "purple" stats in order to increase the value of the account being sold.

To further these fools economic gain, they simply camp in the game, and don't try to win--- because winning doesn't matter to them.  They are just farming damage for their stat padding.

Camping almost always causes a loss for the team that is trying to play and have fun---not playing to line their pocket book.

Comments?

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Please google it before asking. It's easy to find

http://wiki.wnefficiency.net/pages/WN8#The_Steps_of_WN8_-_The_Formula

t2yF1HD.png

 

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1 hour ago, MacusFlash said:

Please google it before asking. It's easy to find

http://wiki.wnefficiency.net/pages/WN8#The_Steps_of_WN8_-_The_Formula

t2yF1HD.png

 

That's weird. Spotting is in there too. Why do games with tons of spotting, no dmg, a win yield no WN8 whatsoever?

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because spotting is barely 10%.
Track dmg counts the same as gun damage but radio dmg gets a 90% slice in SerB taxes. 
Not included in that snapshot is tier vs tier dmg exp modifiers and the same thing for Radio spotting and track dmg.

You do get a WN8 count for games with pure spot but its not much at all.

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20 minutes ago, kariverson said:

That's weird. Spotting is in there too. Why do games with tons of spotting, no dmg, a win yield no WN8 whatsoever?

It counts spotting tanks for the first time in battle. It's not about assisted dmg. 

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2 hours ago, MacusFlash said:

Please google it before asking. It's easy to find

http://wiki.wnefficiency.net/pages/WN8#The_Steps_of_WN8_-_The_Formula

t2yF1HD.png

 

This is the problem... DMG is too big of a chunk.--- whatever part of the formula is the largest is the part the trolls will concentrate on.  If winning is <10% of the score, then why bother winning./

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16 minutes ago, MacusFlash said:

It counts spotting tanks for the first time in battle. It's not about assisted dmg. 

My bad then. Thanks

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7 minutes ago, CanadaGuy said:

This is the problem... DMG is too big of a chunk.--- whatever part of the formula is the largest is the part the trolls will concentrate on.  If winning is <10% of the score, then why bother winning./

Focus on winning and players would play mostly in platoons. Even good but playing solo players would get hurt.

There is no WN8 points for assisted dmg because there is no data in API. We may gather current data somehow but without historical data it'd a great lie. 

The last but least you can't win 1000+ battles without making dmg. As Luna said years ago: "You have to left click enemy before he left click you". It's all about taking away 100% of HP of enemy team. 

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33 minutes ago, MacusFlash said:

Focus on winning and players would play mostly in platoons. Even good but playing solo players would get hurt.

There is no WN8 points for assisted dmg because there is no data in API. We may gather current data somehow but without historical data it'd a great lie. 

The last but least you can't win 1000+ battles without making dmg. As Luna said years ago: "You have to left click enemy before he left click you". It's all about taking away 100% of HP of enemy team. 

I never mentioned assisted dmg.  Don't care.  The point is that people DON'T HAVE TO WIN AT ALL TO GET A HIGHER WN8, and thus the current WN8 formula with hardly any weight on winning is flawed.  It opens the game up for stat padders.  They can simply let the whole team die off sitting in the back knowing they can cleanup the leftovers like a pet at Thanksgiving sitting under the table waiting for scraps.

They don't win the game, but they get a few frags and a bunch of damage, which raises their WN8 even though they pissed off the other 80% of the people trying to win the game like they are supposed to.

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31 minutes ago, CanadaGuy said:

I never mentioned assisted dmg.  Don't care.  The point is that people DON'T HAVE TO WIN AT ALL TO GET A HIGHER WN8, and thus the current WN8 formula with hardly any weight on winning is flawed.  It opens the game up for stat padders.  They can simply let the whole team die off sitting in the back knowing they can cleanup the leftovers like a pet at Thanksgiving sitting under the table waiting for scraps.

They don't win the game, but they get a few frags and a bunch of damage, which raises their WN8 even though they pissed off the other 80% of the people trying to win the game like they are supposed to.

Why does it matter?

It is extremely easy to spot the people that play like this. It can't affect you unless you let it.

And if you let it affect you, whose fault is that? ;thinking_face;

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34 minutes ago, CanadaGuy said:

I never mentioned assisted dmg.  Don't care.  The point is that people DON'T HAVE TO WIN AT ALL TO GET A HIGHER WN8, and thus the current WN8 formula with hardly any weight on winning is flawed.  It opens the game up for stat padders.  They can simply let the whole team die off sitting in the back knowing they can cleanup the leftovers like a pet at Thanksgiving sitting under the table waiting for scraps.

They don't win the game, but they get a few frags and a bunch of damage, which raises their WN8 even though they pissed off the other 80% of the people trying to win the game like they are supposed to.

That's why we look both at WR and WN8. A player with high WN8 and low WR is camping pussy. No one cares about guys like him. 

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3 minutes ago, MacusFlash said:

That's why we look both at WR and WN8. A player with high WN8 and low WR is camping pussy. No one cares about guys like him. 

Except for the fact that Wn8 the way it is now encourages players to camp for stats and that affects the other players on the team by taking away a win they might have had.

What do you mean "don't let it affect me?"... its not up to me to pick my teammates,  MM does that

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53 minutes ago, CanadaGuy said:

I never mentioned assisted dmg.  Don't care.  The point is that people DON'T HAVE TO WIN AT ALL TO GET A HIGHER WN8, and thus the current WN8 formula with hardly any weight on winning is flawed.  It opens the game up for stat padders.  They can simply let the whole team die off sitting in the back knowing they can cleanup the leftovers like a pet at Thanksgiving sitting under the table waiting for scraps.

They don't win the game, but they get a few frags and a bunch of damage, which raises their WN8 even though they pissed off the other 80% of the people trying to win the game like they are supposed to.

It's 2019 and this guy only complains now? :doge:

The reason why win rate is weighed much less than damage is because of how common it is to be absolutely useless in any given match and still get carried to victory by good players doing all the heavy lifting. Your one single shot of 200 damage in a Maus and death within 3 minutes of spawn should be and is correctly weighed significantly less than the STB pulling 6k damage out of its ass and carrying your dead weight for a win. Likewise, if that STB was in a platoon with two other good players they will probably still win and likely have an easier time for that matter, but they might only be doing 4k damage each but still carry each other.

The opposite is also true, in that it is also very common for bad players lose games that are otherwise very winnable, but because they are absolutely useless they manage to make everybody on their team lose instead. A platoon of 3x SConqs should be able to facetank and kill everything in front of them, but what if they all die at the 4 minute mark doing only 2k damage combined because they drove ass first into the enemy? Suddenly their whole team lose considerable chunks of health and firepower, and in the case that they lose the three retarded SConqs are to be blamed. If they somehow pull a win out of their asses, that's great but the SConqs were still inconsequential because they did absolutely nothing to contribute to the win. It is also right that a 140 that pulled 4k damage before losing (or winning) should be seen as having performed better than the SConqs.

This is why damage dealt is a much more useful metric in measuring the performance of a player than win rate.

16 minutes ago, CanadaGuy said:

Except for the fact that Wn8 the way it is now encourages players to camp for stats and that affects the other players on the team by taking away a win they might have had.

What do you mean "don't let it affect me?"... its not up to me to pick my teammates,  MM does that

Shitters have always been useless for one reason or another. Before performance metrics they camped to stay alive and avoid repair bills, or wanted to defend arty, or wanted to defend cap before anyone has driven past half the map. Shitters are shitters and will do everything in their power to play as shit as possible, that's why they are called shitters.

You want to win more? Git gud and carry harder.

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5 minutes ago, Haswell said:

It's 2019 and this guy only complains now? :doge:

The reason why win rate is weighed much less than damage is because of how common it is to be absolutely useless in any given match and still get carried to victory by good players doing all the heavy lifting. Your one single shot of 200 damage in a Maus and death within 3 minutes of spawn should be and is correctly weighed significantly less than the STB pulling 6k damage out of its ass and carrying your dead weight for a win. Likewise, if that STB was in a platoon with two other good players they will probably still win and likely have an easier time for that matter, but they might only be doing 4k damage each but still carry each other.

The opposite is also true, in that it is also very common for bad players lose games that are otherwise very winnable, but because they are absolutely useless they manage to make everybody on their team lose instead. A platoon of 3x SConqs should be able to facetank and kill everything in front of them, but what if they all die at the 4 minute mark doing only 2k damage combined because they drove ass first into the enemy? Suddenly their whole team lose considerable chunk of health and firepower, and in the case that they lose the three retarded SConqs are to be blamed. If they somehow pull a win out of their asses, that's great but the SConqs were still inconsequential because they did absolutely nothing to contribute to the win. It is also right that a 140 that pulled 4k damage before losing (or winning) should be seen as having performed better than the SConqs.

This is why damage dealt is a much more useful metric in measuring the performance of a player than win rate.

Shitters have always been useless for one reason or another. Before performance metrics they camped to stay alive and avoid repair bills, or wanted to defend arty, or wanted to defend cap before anyone has driven past half the map. Shitters are shitters and will do everything in their power to play as shit as possible, that's why they are called shitters.

You want to win more? Git gud and carry harder.

Well.. maybe the "WR" needs to be counted in differently than just a straight percentage in order to take this kind of behaviour into account?

If you win, but you're a certain % below your expected dmg for the tank you're in at that tier, then maybe you don't get so many "wn8 points" vs. someone that went way over their expected rate, but still lost.

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2 hours ago, Jesse_the_Scout said:

if only there was some way to look at win rate separately from wn8

If you wanted to collaborate on developing such a metric, I would be glad to help. I'm sure the OP has some insights. 

 

I  can't be arsed but I think somebody should link the OP to the thread on the math behind Wn8 and Wn*.  I am confident he will find his answers there.

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34 minutes ago, CanadaGuy said:

Well.. maybe the "WR" needs to be counted in differently than just a straight percentage in order to take this kind of behaviour into account?

If you win, but you're a certain % below your expected dmg for the tank you're in at that tier, then maybe you don't get so many "wn8 points" vs. someone that went way over their expected rate, but still lost.

How about this? Win rate isn't weighed in the WN8 calculation at all, but instead displayed as its own independent metric alongside with WN8. In other words it's pointless to look at WN8 without also looking at win rate, and vice versa.

This is exactly why win rate and WN8 are always shown right next to each other, like how it is right now.

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27 minutes ago, CanadaGuy said:

Except for the fact that Wn8 the way it is now encourages players to camp for stats and that affects the other players on the team by taking away a win they might have had.

What do you mean "don't let it affect me?"... its not up to me to pick my teammates,  MM does that

People camp even in Armored Warfare. Against bots in PvE. Don't blame any rating for this. 

Also what Haswell said about WN8 and WR. I told you this before; just read. 

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1 hour ago, CanadaGuy said:

 DON'T HAVE TO WIN AT ALL TO GET A HIGHER WN8

Might come as a shock, but getting higher wn8 isn't the point of the game (if you decide that for you, wn8 > all, then do whatever it takes to pad and have fun.  If you get +50 for every tree knocked down, then make sure you get every single one). 

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People who are stuck at a certain WN8 and say damage is too big of a deal can't actually average high damage consistently, which means their current WN8 is correct and deserved.

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