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On 4/27/2019 at 3:45 PM, lavawing said:

IMO the 430 is alright - it's OP af versus low tiers but fares very poorly against heavier tanks which are everywhere these days. The nerfs would have completely gutted it and made it worse than the 120. The reasons its stats stand out is because it has no stock grind. A shitter like me has difficulty maintaining anything above 2K dpg in it, whereas 2.4K would be a walk in the park in tanks like the WZ, T-10 and AMX. 

The 430U debacle OTOH could have easily been solved with a top speed nerf to 40 or 45 and a DPM nerf to something like 2.5k. So as long as it stays as it is like the Super Conq it will be the yardstick against which all new tanks are measured against which is absolutely terrible for what is left of the game's 'future'.

430 is still OP even against heavier tanks because of the 2 key and also because its armour is retarded. 

Anyone with a brain will do a fuck tonne of damage and anyone without a brain can generally stay alive to shoot the gun a few times. 

On 4/27/2019 at 5:23 AM, hazzgar said:

So it's not OP it's just powercreep since it is worse than trully OP tanks but better than super powercreeped one. T10 balance is shit and the difference between worst and best in tier tanks are huge. 

 

Also 277 should not be here. Wr curves say it's average. It's a worse 1115. 

Powercreep and OP are not mutually exclusive. 

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4 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

 

Powercreep and OP are not mutually exclusive. 

I am not saying they are. It's just OP is based on WR curves. Not against the silly argument of "but top  0.1% of unis do well in it" since that's a small sample + it is usually summed up by "high skill celling".  But overall what I meant is some tanks are slightly above average but are not easymode for winning. That is why I meant by powercreep not op. Imho the new maps + new meta is what really changed SC. It wasn't powercreeped by other tanks and that's why you feel it's still op. The problem is how the game is played now. At least on EU. May be different on SEA and SC may be stronger where you play due to different meta. 

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STB suffers because its gun handling is so clumsy. Throwing in the new hydro suspension is cool and all but seems very irrelevant. And the proposed buffs to movement dispersion penalties and aim time alone would have made the STB way more viable. But this nonsense of toying with the alpha, shell velocity, and pen? Just why?

30b getting normal shell velocity and pen makes it just another generic medium, which is fine. Though the funny thing is that if the 30b's current niche is really that bad, why are they throwing the new STB into it?

Leo changes are just unnecessarily complicated. And even though it would help, I don't like the idea of changing the alpha. High tier 105mm guns should deal 390, and balancing should be done with other stats. In this case they could just give it a meme aim time that's so low and meme pen that's so high that the original concept of sniping from range actually works.

As of the 430 and 430u nerfs.... :serb::serb::serb: Oh wait they cancelled those! For a second there I forgot that it was WG we were dealing with. Though in seriousness I still entertain the tiniest ray of hope that the devs actually saw reason and realized that the armor is the real problem here. Any second now they'll release an announcement for new armor nerfs..... any second now.....

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12 hours ago, Mikosah said:

STB suffers because its gun handling is so clumsy. Throwing in the new hydro suspension is cool and all but seems very irrelevant. And the proposed buffs to movement dispersion penalties and aim time alone would have made the STB way more viable. But this nonsense of toying with the alpha, shell velocity, and pen? Just why?

30b getting normal shell velocity and pen makes it just another generic medium, which is fine. Though the funny thing is that if the 30b's current niche is really that bad, why are they throwing the new STB into it?

Leo changes are just unnecessarily complicated. And even though it would help, I don't like the idea of changing the alpha. High tier 105mm guns should deal 390, and balancing should be done with other stats. In this case they could just give it a meme aim time that's so low and meme pen that's so high that the original concept of sniping from range actually works.

As of the 430 and 430u nerfs.... :serb::serb::serb: Oh wait they cancelled those! For a second there I forgot that it was WG we were dealing with. Though in seriousness I still entertain the tiniest ray of hope that the devs actually saw reason and realized that the armor is the real problem here. Any second now they'll release an announcement for new armor nerfs..... any second now.....

I kinda get 420 alpha for leo but imho what it needs more is Fatton/t100lt gun handling. 0.25acc, 1700 shell speed and 290 standard pen/340 heat. If it has to be a sniper make it a good sniper. If it still doesn't perform well make it a better sniper. Basically make it a swede cheese wedge without armor and crazy camo. 

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On 4/26/2019 at 8:23 PM, hazzgar said:

Is this recent and is this better than your 1115, 60TP and other tanks? Since I kinda get Tajjjs point. Even 3-4 months ago Sconq was much better than it is now. Meta is super toxic and mobility and alpha have really gained in value. 

So it's not OP it's just powercreep since it is worse than trully OP tanks but better than super powercreeped one. T10 balance is shit and the difference between worst and best in tier tanks are huge. 

 

Yeh was my point, my point was about forcing wins, not DPG, farming and punishing idiots who push into you is nowhere near the same as forcing wins in the current meta.

And yeh your second paragraph sums up my point exactly, at no point did I say it was a bad tank and I fully recognise it has some excellent characteristics and probably even has some broken potential considering the lack of hull down weakspots, but in terms of the current tier 10 meta, it being better than like an E5, E100, IS-4, E50M et all does not make it the uber tank some make it out to be, I consistently see this tank claimed to be the best of the best, super power creep tank, but it really isn't. 

I think it has dropped down a level from the top tanks, its still power creep mind. 

On 4/26/2019 at 9:22 PM, Kolni said:

It isn’t mine. It’s Kolmiopaavos, 

My SC DPG is lower, but compared to the other tanks mentioned it is easily the best. I have my highest DPGs in 50B/907/Leo1 (believe it or not) because I excel in those tanks. 

SConq is however the most safe pick I can think of for a high DPG avg, kinda like the E50M in 2014 there are no bad maps for it and it has all the necessary tools to get a good game off in every single MM/map combo possible which no other T10 tank has right now. There are no bad Sconq maps and it has no problems with full T10. That alone makes it very good. It’s OP in its gun stats so you have a consistently abuseable trait on top of that to make it very good. 

It is close to gamebreaking because it overperforms for the top. It’s too easy to play for what it can do without requiring any mechanics whatsoever

Last 1k battles for Kolmiopaavo, showing him playing 110 games in the SC, with 4.5k DPG, so dropping over 400 damage per game, and just 62.73% win rate, dropping over 4% win rate. It actually puts his recent SC win rate below his account recent WR. 

Highlights my point really, its not as effective in the current meta. 

He's also interestingly despite pulling lower DPGs, over the same period he is winning more games playing the 907, Bobject, Patton and 5A. 

You have highlighted its defensive characteristics and its comfortable damage farming characteristics, none of which I disagree with.

My point was the VALUE of these characteristics in winning games in the current meta.

And they are simply not that valuable IMO, currently there are plenty of hull down monsters at tier 10 that rival the SC's defensive capabilities or farming capabilities close enough, but offer more in other areas, like alpha or mobility, that give them more power in winning games in the current meta. Especially when the current meta is very campy, people don't push into hull down tanks, they don't give you easy farming options, you are often left needing to push yourself and react to falling flanks, something the SC simply is not good at. 

Also over performing for the very best is not OP. Op is overperforming for most players.

And as I said WR curves show that even super unis don't over perform in the SC, so even that point is moot. 

IMO 5A, obviously T95/FV4201, 430U, 907, 277, 260 are much better for winning games in the current meta than the SC. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, back on topic, supposedly the RU forums went pretty mad on the suggested changes.

I believe (though this info is 2nd hand so bear that in mind) they didn't think Leo 1 buffs were enough, didn't think the STB-1 changes were even buffs and they thought the 430/430U changes were the wrong way to nerf these tanks.

So I'd presume that back lash is what has prompted this U-turn and it hopefully means that whilst those nerfs are cancelled it just means they will nerf these tanks in a different way, which hopefully means armour nerfs. 

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10 hours ago, hazzgar said:

I kinda get 420 alpha for leo but imho what it needs more is Fatton/t100lt gun handling. 0.25acc, 1700 shell speed and 290 standard pen/340 heat. If it has to be a sniper make it a good sniper. If it still doesn't perform well make it a better sniper. Basically make it a swede cheese wedge without armor and crazy camo. 

Just give it the 277's testserver gun, problems solved

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5 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Anyway, back on topic, supposedly the RU forums went pretty mad on the suggested changes.

I believe (though this info is 2nd hand so bear that in mind) they didn't think Leo 1 buffs were enough, didn't think the STB-1 changes were even buffs and they thought the 430/430U changes were the wrong way to nerf these tanks.

So I'd presume that back lash is what has prompted this U-turn and it hopefully means that whilst those nerfs are cancelled it just means they will nerf these tanks in a different way, which hopefully means armour nerfs. 

If that is true, then kudos to the russian player-base for once.

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On 4/29/2019 at 7:52 AM, Mikosah said:

STB suffers because its gun handling is so clumsy. Throwing in the new hydro suspension is cool and all but seems very irrelevant

Im gonna go and say I dont think its gun handling is whats causing it to suffer. I may be kinda biased because I have full purple equipment+6 skill crew, but its gun handling isnt even that bad.

 

Either way, I think its the lack of it being able to be agressive because it gets penned by everything now. It cant hull down, it cant even do the quick poke and bounce the return shot that it used to be able to do. So its lost its main selling point being its DPM, to other tanks released after or just buffed up that surpass its DPM. And can hull down or ridge poke better (patton)

 

Its kinda weird but I dont think a major gun handling buff like that proposed change mentioned is nessecary. I feel it'd lose its character and individuality if it just became another laser gun. A small buff would be cool. But I think just a simple RoF buff, turret buff enough to actually bounce shit, and a small buff to its bloom and aim time is enough.

 

(Yes im weird and probably stupid to say I dont want a gun handling buff)

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13 hours ago, SchnitzelTruck said:

Just give it the 277's testserver gun, problems solved

That also had better soft stats? 

10 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

Im gonna go and say I dont think its gun handling is whats causing it to suffer. I may be kinda biased because I have full purple equipment+6 skill crew, but its gun handling isnt even that bad.

 

Either way, I think its the lack of it being able to be agressive because it gets penned by everything now. It cant hull down, it cant even do the quick poke and bounce the return shot that it used to be able to do. So its lost its main selling point being its DPM, to other tanks released after or just buffed up that surpass its DPM. And can hull down or ridge poke better (patton)

 

Its kinda weird but I dont think a major gun handling buff like that proposed change mentioned is nessecary. I feel it'd lose its character and individuality if it just became another laser gun. A small buff would be cool. But I think just a simple RoF buff, turret buff enough to actually bounce shit, and a small buff to its bloom and aim time is enough.

 

(Yes im weird and probably stupid to say I dont want a gun handling buff)

Another unpenetrable hull down tank is what makes this game shit. Hulldown meta is bad. It makes the game too passive and it punishes making plays too much. DPM creep is also bad. This is what leads to steamrolls we are seeing recently. 

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8 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

That also had better soft stats? 

Another unpenetrable hull down tank is what makes this game shit. Hulldown meta is bad. It makes the game too passive and it punishes making plays too much. DPM creep is also bad. This is what leads to steamrolls we are seeing recently. 

Doesnt need to be unpenetrable, just good enough to withstand a quick poke and back down like it could originally

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3 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

Doesnt need to be unpenetrable, just good enough to withstand a quick poke and back down like it could originally

I get it but the hull down meta is a problem. 

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Hulldown meta is bad. But the armor spam... Is not the root problem right?

The current Patton has fake armor. I think the M60A1 should have been added instead.

 

@Assassin7

Purely hypothetically. What about the burst I talked about? In an 'alternate gun' option.

First 2 or 3 shots are fired in 4 second intervals. Rest of shells are reloaded & fired at 7 RPM. Magazine restock at same rate. No rammer affect. Inferior gun arc.

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On 4/29/2019 at 9:37 PM, Madner Kami said:

If that is true, then kudos to the russian player-base for once.

Like I said this is based on someone else reading their forums (probably with google translate) and posting this on the EU forums so they may have interpreted it wrong.

But WG have communicated this whole thing terribly, badly translated articles missing points came across in the first place and I don't think the article that then confirmed they were re-thinking it was well written either.

I think when they say 'cancelled' they mean those specific nerfs, not the plan to nerf these tanks in the first place, at least that is what I think (hope) is happening. 

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For the STB-1, it was ridiculous to puke out a litany of numerical changes to so many different vehicle parameters. There even seemed to be errors included, with the APCR round listed as being of slower velocity than the AP. Maybe the premium round was actually intended to remain HEAT.

Before going into so much detail, you should first have a working proposal for hydropneumatic suspension and how it would impact the same parameters.

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1 hour ago, Mureke said:

For the STB-1, it was ridiculous to puke out a litany of numerical changes to so many different vehicle parameters. There even seemed to be errors included, with the APCR round listed as being of slower velocity than the AP. Maybe the premium round was actually intended to remain HEAT.

Before going into so much detail, you should first have a working proposal for hydropneumatic suspension and how it would impact the same parameters.

Yeh it was supposed to be HEAT, that was an error on the article, plus it mentioned nowhere that the turret armour was going to get buffed, which you'd think was important information.

Then the Leo 1 information said they were nerfing power to weight, even though they weren't.

This whole 'medium rebalance' thing was a bit of a mess on WG's part, lets hope they come back with something better thought out and more clearly communicated. 

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5 hours ago, tajj7 said:

lets hope they come back with something better thought out and more clearly communicated. 

I'm going to hope for water to stop being wet instead, seems to be a more likely proposal.

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@hazzgar after playing 1.5 for a few days and playing against the swede meds.... I now completely see where you are coming from and agree with you on the shoving lots of armour and making everything invincible hull down

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1 hour ago, Assassin7 said:

@hazzgar after playing 1.5 for a few days and playing against the swede meds.... I now completely see where you are coming from and agree with you on the shoving lots of armour and making everything invincible hull down

Tanks.gg is bugged so are they that good hulldown? Haven't played 1.5 yet

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26 minutes ago, nabucodonsor said:

Tanks.gg is bugged so are they that good hulldown? Haven't played 1.5 yet

on flat terrain there nothing special, decent but not crazy.

But Hulldown the turret outside of the bulge area is pretty strong, basically immune to all AP/APCR rounds because auto-bounce angle.

And even the Bulge area is a 50/50 to 320 APCR & 330-340 heat, and that's if you hit dead center. similar to a E5 cupola having your round go slightly to the left/right---up/down typically means a bounce.

Jit6OCe.png

I dont have a more realistic image of it being in hulldown mode, but the green areas are where its weakest when hulldown.

Most notably if a UDES driver over exposes their UFP the lesser angled area is an auto-pen to pretty much anything which i highlighted in green.

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4 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

@hazzgar after playing 1.5 for a few days and playing against the swede meds.... I now completely see where you are coming from and agree with you on the shoving lots of armour and making everything invincible hull down

Yeah. WG basically made every tank rather strong defensively. This made everyone more passive which hurts other passive tanks. This also means the tanks that can push are more important and the games are decided by either one good push or one bad push. 

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This all started when they decided to give everything gun depression.  Now its reached its logical absurd extreme and we have a -13 degree depression tank that shows less skin than prom night in mormon country when its in siege mode.

How hard would it be for WG to just shave 30mm off of the 430U cupolas and watch the stats for a month.  The whole problem with WG is that the notion of incremental balance is unheard of to them.  Hell, they are releasing big patches every few weeks lately, adding/subtracting a few mm at a time would not only give them better data - it would also arouse a lot less outrage from their customers.

Hell, I don't even play anymore - I just like fanning the flames a bit.  WG still provides me with plenty of fuel. 

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New changes

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/707157-medium-tanks-rebalance-supertest-second-iteration/page__p__16867271#entry16867271

Quote

The first Supertest iteration for the re-balanced medium tanks is over, and we would like to share the results with you.
 

Our plans to re-balance some MTs prompted a heated discussion within the community. We totally agree this is a very important matter for many of you as the proposed changes concern Tier X vehicles—the prized ones which one doesn’t get in a day or two. Even positive adjustments to top-tier vehicles may impact the motivation to invest in their research. That’s why we do our best to inform you about every change beforehand.
 

Now we’ll describe some additional adjustments to the MTs in more detail, and will also explain what we intend to achieve. It should be noted that two of the five vehicles we mentioned before, the Object 430 and the Object 430U, will stay intact for now.
 

Please take note that all changes are currently being Supertested, and the stats may be further tweaked during the next iterations. The final stats of the tanks involved will be defined only before the release.
 

Leopard 1
 

From its inception, we envisioned this tank as a mobile sniper able to swiftly react to the battle dynamic and lend support to allies while staying far from the enemy. A good sniper needs a quality gun, so we concentrated our efforts on the tank’s armament. After two closed test iterations, we boosted a range of its parameters, including accuracy, stabilization, armor penetration, and shell velocity.
 

The APCR will continue to be the basic round of Leopard 1 and will travel at a speed of 1,480 meters per second. During the tests, we came to the conclusion that keeping this shell type best suits the tank’s role (a long-range striker). The new special shell will be an ACPR, too (as we told you before), but its armor penetration will be improved even further, up to 323 mm. Its velocity of 1,613 meters per second will make it one of the fastest rounds currently in the game. The increased gun accuracy of 0.29 makes the Leopard 1 the most precise shooter among all Tier X medium tanks.
 

If the testing goes well, the operators of the Leopard 1 will be able to choose between two kinds of APCRs, both with fine stats. On top of that, these rounds’ armor penetration stays high at long range.
 

But that’s not all. We plan to test the improved stabilization which will amount to 0.13 both on the move and while taking a turn (approximately 28% better than the stabilization on the main server now). Together with the short aiming time of 1.7 seconds, this will let the Leopard 1 get ready for firing much faster.
 

The Leopard 1 will get these modifications now, and if these are up to our expectations, the tank will become the ultimate mobile sniper. By increasing the alpha, the accuracy, and the stabilization, we’re fine-tuning the top German for comfortable play in its redefined role. High shell velocity and armor penetration will allow damaging an opponent even from afar. Of course, the vulnerabilities shall stay: the armor won’t thicken, still being almost a ‘placeholder’ one. Please keep that in mind: a true sniper should be very cautious!

 

STB-1
 

Currently, the STB-1 is a generic tank which plays pretty well at mid-range but lacks a unique style. We intend to create one—by introducing a very peculiar feature plus significantly boosting the stats, to make it a formidable close-to-mid-range fighter.
 

The said feature is a hydro-pneumatic suspension the tankers have kept asking for—because the real-world STB-1 had one. Thanks to this mechanic, the Japanese will be able to tilt its hull, increasing its effective gun depression. The suspension will switch on automatically, just like on the new Swedish medium tanks. The total gun depression will increase from 10 to 12 degrees. Because of the introduction of a new mechanic the ‘tilt input’ will be split 50/50: 6 degrees at the expense of the hull and 6 degrees at the expense of the gun. Should we get positive test results, the STB-1 will be able to use terrain folds to maximal efficiency, hitting its enemies at extreme angles from unexpected directions.
 

We’re also going to test the second important adjustment: a boost to turret protection. For the STB-1 to keep it together in a brawl, we’ll do the following:
 

  • Get rid of weak armor zones in the gun mantlet
  • Increase the mantlet armor thickness
  • Bolster the overall frontal turret protection
     

After such a complex upgrade to the turret’s armor, the STB-1 will cope with enemy strikes much better. Together with the new suspension, this will strengthen the tank’s terrain-based play. The Japanese medium will be able to dish out damage reliably while surviving multiple hits.
 

“Reliable” is the best word describing the damage dealing capacity of the STB-1, as the third essential change to the tank is the increased damage per minute. While the alpha will go down, the DPM will grow even more compared to the first Supertest iteration. Due to reloading time decreased from 7.3 to 7.1 seconds, the DPM will cross the 3,000 threshold, reaching an awesome height of 3,042 points of damage which is the second best for the Tier X medium tanks. Besides that, the STB-1 will keep its improved gun stabilization from the first testing phase. Due to the combination of all these factors—the increased DPM, better stabilization, and the introduction of an AP shell—the tank will be able to shoot more often while sustaining high DPM.
 

The changes to the velocity of the rounds should be addressed separately. During the Supertest, the APCR shell will be substituted by an AP one. This entails a speed decrease, but after the first testing phase, we decided not to make it drastic (from the current 1478 to 1185 meters per second). Thus, both rounds (basic and special) are in fact becoming slower. Still, due to the changes to the STB-1 tactical role, the velocity of its rounds ceases to be a very important parameter. The tank will excel at close-to-mid-range combat, using its hydro-pneumatic suspension and also its improved turret armor, DPM, and gun stabilization. AP rounds will normalize better, increasing the chance to penetrate enemy armor.
 

AMX 30B
 

We’d like to run one more test iteration for this one with its stats unchanged, so it will transition to the next stage as it is.
 

The Conclusion
 

Re-balancing Tier X vehicles aren’t easy, and that’s why the closed test consists of many steps. Not all the tweaks make it into the release; those bringing needed results get into the Common test where you can probe them yourselves. Our objective is to make these tanks more diverse gameplay-wise, and also more efficient in their respective tactical roles. We want every player to be able to find a tank that suits them most and have fun fighting in it while using its potential to the fullest.
 

Once again: please remember that all the changes we’ve mentioned are in closed test now, and the tanks’ stats may change when a new stage starts. The final parameters will be defined just before the release.

 

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