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IS-3-II/ST-II (Super Test)

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8 hours ago, lavawing said:

Tried a few games in my friend's account.

The barrel switch is jarring. Somewhat negates the bloom advantage.

780 alpha is a lie, don't use linked fire unless on soft targets in the open.

Armour profile is strong and retarded for frontal poking due to angling. Takes a lot of arty damage due to 20mm deck. Tank is not as small as the IS-3 and turret sides are very vulnerable. Height also makes -5 gun depression problematic on some maps.

Gun is better than I expected, but TBH I would much prefer the IS-3 gun without an autoloader on the same platform. The bloom is great BUT you switch between barrels. Two shots is great BUT you have a 5s interclip. Treat it like a derpy conventional tank unless people overcommit and you can punish them. This is not a true autoloader like the 3A is, but unlike the 3A it is not actually reliant on the autoloader.

I would not play this tank for fun as the arty focus + derpiness makes this stressful to run pubs in. Still OP af and better than the IS-3A.

 

I only played a few battles like you but I agree 780 alpha is unreliable but it's still usable in the right situation. 5s intraclip doesn't mean you are a true autoreloader but it gives you more opportunities to shoot people. 

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5 hours ago, hazzgar said:

Using your logic we should scramble this whole section of the forum

i don't actually understand the use of the word "scramble" in this sentence.

Discussion is cool, unrelenting Chicken-Littleism gets boring.  How many of the past "game-breaking"  and FOTM tanks are now gathering dust in early adopters garages? 

Power creep is a thing, OP tanks are a thing, corridor maps are a thing, opaque bushes are a thing, slanting the gameplay towards RU players preference is a thing.  I just accept those things and move on.  Sorry.

 

 

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3 hours ago, j_galt said:

i don't actually understand the use of the word "scramble" in this sentence.

Discussion is cool, unrelenting Chicken-Littleism gets boring.  How many of the past "game-breaking"  and FOTM tanks are now gathering dust in early adopters garages? 

Power creep is a thing, OP tanks are a thing, corridor maps are a thing, opaque bushes are a thing, slanting the gameplay towards RU players preference is a thing.  I just accept those things and move on.  Sorry.

 

 

Scramble As in erase. This topic was made to discuss a certain tank. You suggested as somehow discussing if certain tanks are strong or weak should not happen. Though your next post reveals that wasn't your real intention and in reality you are just trying to pose as a contrarian and be the cool guy who stands against the popular opinion. The problem is you mistake this with pub forums. Most tanks there were considered OP by the wotlabs community are op. Most tanks that were considered game breaking are game breaking. Of course I can be wrong but if I am please provide me with examples.

 

Also if "all the problems with the game are a thing and you just accept it" then can you just not visit the part of wotlabs forums made for discussing game changes? It's a really good way not to take part of a discussion you state not to want to take part in. Though I find it a bit ironic that you write another post about how much you don't care. It makes you look like a poser, right after being "I kill OP tanks with ease". Want to pose as a cool pro that doesn't care with anything? Challenge Kolni to a DPG contest. Otherwise please stop posting and maybe move to pub forum since your posturing isn't impressing anyone. (Then again what do I expect from someone who choose a messianic figure from one of the worst written books in history as his username) 

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If DB tanks like the 703 II end up being OP, its going to be for reasons other than the fact that they have double barrels. If the 703 II is OP its because of its armor, not because of its guns. Honestly the guns seem fun, but they don't actually seem *GOOD*. Imagine how... not good the Progetto would be if it had double barrels instead of the autoreloader.

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Really? I find the 703 II good (well, OP) because of the gun. But not just because of the double barrel thing. Mostly because it doesn't bloom much and because it can have a second shot in 5 seconds if it needs it, making it a very efficient trader. The armor is only the second best thing about the vehicle, IMO.

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Oh, see, the bloom thing is another thing with the 703 II that makes it OP but isn't the double barrels. Imagine how amazing the 112 would be if it had those bloom values and the pen, even without the double barrels? Its really fun watching someone getting blapped for 800 damage, but the windup and winddown time for the double shot makes it really awkward and situational; the whole system amounts to a really clumsy quasi-autoreloader system.

I guess I'll put it this way: would the IS-5 actually be any good if WG threw double barrels and made no other changes?

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On 1/6/2020 at 3:59 PM, Tupinambis said:

If DB tanks like the 703 II end up being OP, its going to be for reasons other than the fact that they have double barrels. If the 703 II is OP its because of its armor, not because of its guns. Honestly the guns seem fun, but they don't actually seem *GOOD*. Imagine how... not good the Progetto would be if it had double barrels instead of the autoreloader.

You have a point. 703 II would not be OP if it didn't have good armor. It may not be the best armored tank it its trier but it's still reliable armor that works on a tank with massive dmg potential.

15 hours ago, Tupinambis said:

Oh, see, the bloom thing is another thing with the 703 II that makes it OP but isn't the double barrels. Imagine how amazing the 112 would be if it had those bloom values and the pen, even without the double barrels? Its really fun watching someone getting blapped for 800 damage, but the windup and winddown time for the double shot makes it really awkward and situational; the whole system amounts to a really clumsy quasi-autoreloader system.

I guess I'll put it this way: would the IS-5 actually be any good if WG threw double barrels and made no other changes?

It's the armor and the bloom but also the flexibility 2 barrels gives you. Yes 800 is not something you use often but the thing is compared to high alpha tanks you have the choice to fire 1 shot and have a shorter reload. If an ISU 152 misses he is fucked. He has to wait. You have 3 different firing modes. That is a ton of flexibility not afforded to any other tank which means you have way more opportunities to do damage.

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Most players can't use flexibility though.

I am also pretty sure without the soft stats the double barrelled thing would be completely unusable.

I don't think the 703 2 is OP, it's very good but not OP.

If I was to make one change it would probably for the accuracy to be worse in double shot mode, make it more like a derp gun and therefore more like a shotgun shot, which would make it less effective double shoting paper targets at medium to long ranges. 

Aside from that I think it's generally ok. 

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2 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Most players can't use flexibility though.

I am also pretty sure without the soft stats the double barrelled thing would be completely unusable.

I don't think the 703 2 is OP, it's very good but not OP.

If I was to make one change it would probably for the accuracy to be worse in double shot mode, make it more like a derp gun and therefore more like a shotgun shot, which would make it less effective double shoting paper targets at medium to long ranges. 

Aside from that I think it's generally ok. 

I don't agree. What is true is most players are bad at maximizing flexibility but they will still have way better results because they can blap someone for 780 (2 shoot or 5s autoloader) and then if there is an opportunity to shoot they can shoot with 1 in the barell. That has nothing to do with planning. You just get more situations where you can shoot people. 

Also again why it's not op? Again it's better than very good heavies in the same tier. 

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I'm no unicorn, but the 703II certainly feels pretty OP.

It's a small sample size so far (only 12 games) but I have a 83% win rate, and 2.1k average damage, with 381 assist. I even managed to ace the silly thing in my very first game in it. These are figures well beyond any of my other tier 8s (mediums, heavies, whatever). In contrast, the E75TS (24 games) has only a 63% win rate and average damage of 1,727 (542 assist) which is more in line with my other heavies. Yes, it's possible (even likely) with more games that will come back down closer to my typical averages, but the tank feels very powerful (especially if you avoid a tier 10 game). I agree with @hazzgar that the flexibility the gun offers, plus the fact that it has not-awful mobility and very good armour for the tier means even for a poor-ish player, it is a very powerful tool.

The fact you had to gamble with loot-boxes for this OP vehicle just ups the "**** WG what were they thinking" mentality for the whole thing.

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On 1/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, hazzgar said:

I don't agree. What is true is most players are bad at maximizing flexibility but they will still have way better results because they can blap someone for 780 (2 shoot or 5s autoloader) and then if there is an opportunity to shoot they can shoot with 1 in the barell. That has nothing to do with planning. You just get more situations where you can shoot people. 

Also again why it's not op? Again it's better than very good heavies in the same tier. 

The double shot is massively situational and often times actually detrimental to use because of the charge up, you often miss the chance of the shot entirely or take a higher risk shot because you are going for the double shot when really you should just shoot one by one, its a gimmick.

And as anyone who has used the Foch 155 knows a 5s autoloader is only really one in name and not that useful at all.

I can't see why it would be OP, the double shot is gimmicky and situational, the armour is ok but not amazing, certainly far from idiot proof (decent turret if people don't have like 240 plus pen, ok upper plate, large and easy to pen lower plate, and the whole tank is rather large and easy to hit). Then you have the 221 pen which is lacklustre, feels more like 200 AP and you have heat as prem which is not great either. The accuracy/aim time is meh, the view range is poor, the mobility is poor, and the gun depression is bad. 

Couple that altogether you have a good brawler (if used well) that is poor at almost every other role, that can occasionally can blap people for 780 if they sit still for like 3s in the open and don't have much armour. 

Also I have watched plenty of people use the double shot thing and shoot one barrel into a wall because they don't account for both guns.

When I looked pretty much all the streamers were doing better in other heavies like the Renegade, I also do the same, I do better in the Renegade which is IMO a better tank because it's capable of far more in more circumstances, but I would also say is far from OP.

Don't see how a 703 v2 competes with a Defender at all (I consistently saw Defenders domination games not the v2 when I was playing it), or with like a VK 100.01 P or a Caern, or a 53tp, those IMO would be the yardsticks for tier 8 heavies. 

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The double shot might be situational, but it's another weapon in the arsenal. I use it rarely, but occasionally blapping someone for 780 is a perk for sure. Arguing it isn't is weird, nobody forces anyone to use it, overusing it is just gambling I suppose, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Your argument against it being a powerful tool mostly seems to revolve around people not knowing how and when to use it.

Comparing the auto-reloader feature, shooting the second barrel after 5 seconds, to the 155 is a massively flawed argument. It very frequently allows you to trade 2 for 1 against enemies you push on. The 155 has a massive reload, no turret and is a tier 10. It's not a helpful comparison at all.

The armor is certainly not shellproof, but it bounces a fair bit, allows for sidescraping and hull-down play. Just good Rusky armor and a lower plate that bounces the occasional shot when angled heavily so you can push our a corner and bait shots.

When discussing the gun you didn't mention the awesome soft stats. I rarely aim for anything since the aim circle is so small to begin with. This is a snapshot king, that's part of what makes it a veeeery comfortable ride, probably OP.

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7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

The double shot is massively situational and often times actually detrimental to use because of the charge up, you often miss the chance of the shot entirely or take a higher risk shot because you are going for the double shot when really you should just shoot one by one, its a gimmick.

The thing is you are not punished at all for not using double shot. So no matter how you look at it, the double shot is still an advantage. Not a huge one but still an advantage. Plus there are clear situations where the double shot makes sense and works.

 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

And as anyone who has used the Foch 155 knows a 5s autoloader is only really one in name and not that useful at all.

Sorry but this is wrong on 2 accounts:

1. This is not an autoloader but an auto reloader. Big difference, smaller drawbacks for shooting 1 time

2. It is useful when enemies are attacking you and are on 1 shot hp or just go for you in regular time intervals. This happens more often than most people care to admit because the current meta is idiot plays.

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

the double shot is gimmicky and situational,

Again you miss the key factor. You have 3 distinct firing modes. The tank is still highly capable in single shot mode. The autoreloader and 2 shots are situational but useful in those specific situations. (also I remember how people undervalued italian autoreloaders when they were released first).

 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

the armour is ok but not amazing,

Only 2 heavy tanks in tier has actually amazing armor (VK1001p and Defender) and one gets punished for that by being slow as shit and huge. It's armor also scales badly when fighting higher tiers while 703 still has a turret that works with wiggling and moving due to typical russian angles. Defender is better but the gun is more derpy. 

 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

decent turret if people don't have like 240 plus pen

240 pen is not autopen. It's not a flat turret face so that armor still maximizes your survival.

 

You also omit the sides are rather strong. Not strong against high pen guns but will lower the angle from which you can be shot, especially by meds and lights.

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Then you have the 221 pen which is lacklustre,

Oh come on. Now I know you are just pulling stuff out of your ass. 

Let's look at t8 heavies and their pen values (and I will not use pref mm tanks so you have it easier):

Heavies With Higher Pen:

  • T34
  • 50 100
  • Liberte
  • Caern AX
  • E75TS
  • IS3
  • KV4
  • Lowe
  • Renegade
  • Defender
  • Patriot
  • Somua
  • Tiger II
  • VK4501

Same Pen:

  • IS3A

Heavies with Lower Pen:

  • 110
  • 50TP Prot
  • 53TP
  • Amx 65T
  • Chrystler K
  • Emil 1951
  • Emil I
  • IS-M
  • Caern
  • O-Ho
  • T32
  • VK1001p
  • Mauerbrecher
  • VK4502a

That gives you 14 tanks with more pen. 1 tanks with same pen. 13 tanks with less pen. Not including pref MM tanks. So being exactly in the middle. Having standard pen for this tier heavy is "lacklustre"? 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

The accuracy/aim time is meh,

Tajj you are a good player and somehow your asessment of this tank is "this isn't a high dpm, fast and accurate sniper tank". FFS. Yeah the acc is trash but the bloom is great. Ie the same what makes IS3 so good. 

Complaining about the gun here is nonsense and it makes me think someone has hacked your account. Let's compare the guns.

703 is better in:

  • 120 more DPM
  • 150 more mp/s shell velocity
  • 12 more shells (28 shells in IS3 mean you sometimes run low on preffered ammo)
  • 0.08 better movement bloom
  • 0.08 traverse bloom
  • 0.02 better turret bloom (and IS3 is praised for its super low bloom)

IS3 is better in:

  • 4 mm of pen
  • 0.1s aim time
  • 0.04 dispersion (the only big one but imho part of it is offset by shell speed)

 

So saying the gun is lacklustre when it's comparable if not better to the best heavy gun in tier is silly. Also most of your criticism could be aimed at the IS3.

 

Seriously the same logic was first used when people said obj 430U won't be that OP. 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

the view range is poor,

So is it for a ton of other Ruskie heavies that have dominated the meta over the years. Again it's not a snipy tank. 

 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

the mobility is poor,

Meh yes, poor ? No. Not poor enough for workable armor and a great gun. 

 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Couple that altogether you have a good brawler (if used well)

Yeah good brawling is useless in t8. 

 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Also I have watched plenty of people use the double shot thing and shoot one barrel into a wall because they don't account for both guns.

Stop getting so focused on the double shot. The double shot is an extra feature you can use when you know it's useful. 

 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

When I looked pretty much all the streamers were doing better in other heavies like the Renegade, I also do the same, I do better in the Renegade which is IMO a better tank because it's capable of far more in more circumstances, but I would also say is far from OP.

Renegade gets better results from unis because it's better in early damage and late game damage. You make a common wotlabs mistake of underestimating tanks which are super useful in key moments of the battle and ones that fall short on cleanup damage. Also I looked and pretty much all streamers posted multiple 5.5k+ games in their 703's. Also Renegade is not OP because it only works for Blues and up. 703 works for everyone. 

 

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Don't see how a 703 v2 competes with a Defender at all (I consistently saw Defenders domination games not the v2 when I was playing it), or with like a VK 100.01 P or a Caern, or a 53tp, those IMO would be the yardsticks for tier 8 heavies. 

LOL. I mean lol.

You say the gun on this is derpy and then you compare it to a defender. Same acc, barely better aimtime and 2x the bloom... 

You say the tank is huge and slow when VK1001p is slower, bigger, it armor scales worse against higher tiers and it has 2.5x worse bloom.

53TP is funny since it's a heavium and it's hard to compare. 

But you mentioning Caern shows me really what you did here. You think a good tank that doesn't have one completely broken off the wall feature (1001p/defender) has to be an accurate, high dpm, high vision tank. So the tank is still OP. It just doesn't suit your preferences. Dude. The tank has the best bloom in tier. BEST FFS. Even as a single shot this would be a good tank.

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@tajj7 think of it differently. Would a 112 with more pen, better bloom and 5s autoreloader and 2 shot feature be op? Or IS3 with better bloom, 2 guns/autoreloader and better hull armor but 2hp/t less be op? Imagine the reaction to those buffs. 

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Heads up: Gamemodels3d has the test version of 1.7.1 up. I don't know if anyting significant is in there, but I'm happy to see that the stock IS-2-II ISN'T stuck with absolutely miserable 85mm guns with like 160 pen or whatever it had it supertest.

 

They're still 85mm guns, but they're magical and have like 212 stock pen.

Also the shell cost for the 100mm version of the Object 703 II got adjusted, so they're probably planning on releasing that at some point. Honestly it looks better than the 122mm version.

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Testserver is up and I had my first rounds in it (STII) yesterday. Eventhough I  mostly derped around

Gunhandling feels nice.
But what rly surprised me was the 310 HEAT pen. With this pen, the biggest troll you can do is to bring your Obj 279 and see them bounce. I saw a single Obj 279 holdin up against five STIIs on Himmelsdorf. With only 310mm pen they have little to no chance to pen the Obj frontally.
I really expected the STII to make appearance in CW meta. But with this laughable pen there is no chance in hell we gona see them. For yolo heavium rushes this thing is too slow. And for a city brawls it will lose pretty much every fight against 279s.


For publics on the other hand this thing could be fun. Gun handling, gun depression and normal pen are fine. And the memes for double tapping poor T8s are just pure gold. 

 

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Frankly i Found the tier 10 to be disappointing

it has no mobility, No armor, Meh DPM/RoF, and shit gold pen.

only things it has going for it are the DB gimmick and the dispersion values, but in relation to that i found the gun to still be derpy af despite the dispersion values (purple Vstab, Bia, food, GLD)

tbh i found both the tier 8/9 to be far more enjoyable at their tiers by comparison. Both have decent mobility, solid turrets without huge cupolas, better gold pen for their tiers, and way less derpy guns.  

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On 1/18/2020 at 12:15 PM, hall0 said:

Testserver is up and I had my first rounds in it (STII) yesterday. Eventhough I  mostly derped around

Gunhandling feels nice.
But what rly surprised me was the 310 HEAT pen. With this pen, the biggest troll you can do is to bring your Obj 279 and see them bounce. I saw a single Obj 279 holdin up against five STIIs on Himmelsdorf. With only 310mm pen they have little to no chance to pen the Obj frontally.
I really expected the STII to make appearance in CW meta. But with this laughable pen there is no chance in hell we gona see them. For yolo heavium rushes this thing is too slow. And for a city brawls it will lose pretty much every fight against 279s.


For publics on the other hand this thing could be fun. Gun handling, gun depression and normal pen are fine. And the memes for double tapping poor T8s are just pure gold. 

 

Isn't 279 hull 280 effective?

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45 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

Isn't 279 hull 280 effective?

I am not sure if there is a correct armor model going around, but shooting at what feels like the flattest angle with 330/340 pen heat certainly doesn't guarantee a pen.

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2 hours ago, Ezz said:

I am not sure if there is a correct armor model going around, but shooting at what feels like the flattest angle with 330/340 pen heat certainly doesn't guarantee a pen.

Belence. 

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On 1/20/2020 at 8:41 AM, lavawing said:

Much better just to have 750 alpha than two 440 guns that have shit gold pen and no rammer.

Early game? Maybe but late game? You can kill 2 one shots pushing you.

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On 1/19/2020 at 2:51 PM, hazzgar said:

Isn't 279 hull 280 effective?

No it is not. With everything below 330 you can basically go fuck yourself. 

No idea why tanks.gg shows 280mm here. Maybe it is bugged as are a lot models. 
gamemodels3d shows values which are much more believable. I played against so many 279 during the last CW seasons and I can assure you it is defently more in the 340mm range. 

image.thumb.png.24028ecb18ac3b3d47fa23afede67e85.png

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