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Diriz0n

toxic light tanks

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If WG magically gave the option in settings, to turn off battles with Artillery and Light tanks, I would check off both in an instant. A fucking instant. Yes, I do agree that even tank destroyers and light tanks combined, do not create the toxicity arty does, sure nothing does that. But LT are definitely more toxic than TDs. And in a blink of an eye, I would select these things as off and never face off with these shits again in a pub. And I am not just singling out armoured cars, which are the most troublesome of the bunch. All are problems, except the low tier pseudo-light tanks. IE:  Valentine, AMX4O, MTLS  -  these things are fine because they are lies really, not light tanks at all more of meds.

ơ  LT promote extreme passive play. Unlike arty they don't bomb and stun people far away, sure. But they spot for the arty to bomb and stun people. They don't suffer camo on the move penalty, making their job quite easy and extremely frustrating to counter late game. Even bad camo LT, can sit in a bush with binocs / camo next and dramatically increase their camo/view range, to which you never spot them unless literally running into them or have an EBR run into them. 

ơ  Myself included, guilty and to be charged......farming damage in light tanks. Excellent camo, camo on the move, small size, speed  -  these things are terror late game and clean up very well. Notice the LT re-balance ages ago, bringing them to tier 1O - WG decided to nerf their view ranges/DPM/pen/Accuracy? Because that the WG queue, their actions saying, "light tanks are toxic fucks. We need to limit their ability." 

ơ   Meds can fulfill their role of battlefield spotters, with the healthy gameplay risk of losing 25% their camo if they move. This is great for gameplay, adding risk management. They don't have the retarded LT camo shield when they move. 

ơ   Arty punishing aggressive gameplay?  Well, it is very very very likely a hidden light tank, that hasn't move in a minute, spotted you making an aggressive play, to which you get punished by arty or TD. Sure, it is easy to get caught up, and angry over passive play from TD and definitely, point and click sky shits - but where is the root of the problem? A lazy cock light tank making it all happen. The light tank is pointing and clicking too, he just is Teeing, not firing. 

ơ   For all the stat guys, LT horribly skew WN8 too.   of all the TK, how many are TKs on light tanks too teams are angry over? Just because team-dmg is turned off, doesn't mean TK are off. Allies push you, nudge you off edges, block you in wrecks, drown you, Etc. 

I am not going to argue with people over the fact that yes, arty is more toxic and shitty, without an ounce of skill. Because l guess light tanks need to some of rudimentary skills. But besides brown sky farts, no other class causes as much trouble as lights. People, newcomers especially, leave this game over the fact retartded invisible light tanks are preying on them, half the problem of low tier clubbing constitutes light tanks. Heavy tanks in city maps are annoying, sure but can be avoided - unless what you are driving is something like Strv. I have seen soft skins like AMX3O, Leo, STB1, Grille 15, FV4K5 do just fine in city maps and close encounters. But for Strv, that is on you for not turning off Ensk and Himmels. So what is the problem here, the results that light tanks can get so easily? No, because spotting and contesting map area are  part of the game  --  it is just the easy mode in which they are able to do it. (like arty, isn't it? Free damage?)  Medium tanks can step in and do the role of scouting, at a much fairer, riskier, healthier way.

And this applies to CW, too. Clan Wars was just fucking fine with Bat Chat 25 doing that shit. Light tanks are toxic in that venue, too. 

 

 

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Heavy tanks can be avoided. Type 5 sucks now, too. Most medium tanks, have 33Omm HEAT that penetrate heavy tanks like EHundo, Maus, or Jag Pz frontally  -  with more DPM, accuracy, and less aim-time. I have seen countless streamers, play medium tanks up front against brawling heavy tanks, and have great games. I have done it many times myself. Not only medium tanks, there are people doing it with pisspoor armour vehicles like Bat Chat 25, Grille 15, FV4K5, WT PzlV  -  and still pulling off great games in close quarters. 

 

But people getting shot apart by tanks they cannot see, because a light tank is invisible allowing team mates half a click away to fire upon it relentlessly  -  is not fun. People sitting in Prokhs vast 1-2 lane forest, or the forested wilderness of 7-8-9-O murovan.....all game is not fun. Like people have been doing that in prokh and malin for 8 years. Thank god they at least removed Komarin, hopefully they remove Redshire again. There is no difference to that, than artillery doing it. Artillery is not spotting its targets, arty is bombing most of the time what light tanks spot. I do not agree with a meta-game solely focused on 1OO Tonne super heavy tanks sitting on a corner duking it out with another, 2OOm away max doing the same thing. But l also do not agree with stagnant light tanks sitting behind bushes with 3O+% camo, not even counting the bush camo that stacks. And don't agree with these light tanks, moving to these positions with invisible camo shielding, on-the-move. WG also doesn't approve apparently of climbing, adding TD track sliding  (E25 and UDES and T67 now slide much more)  and blocking off most routes, because LT and Bat Chat climb and stagnant games all the time, I am not against assistance damage and spotting, but it should be how medium tanks do it - a measure of risk because of their size and lowered camo while moving.

 

A good measure of a map, include something like Fisherman Bay, Studzi, Ghost Town,  pilsen, westfield. Dedicated open areas and ridges for medium tanks to secure, and TD to overwatch. Yet, dedicated heavy tank area to fight over - effectively utilizing all classes. But light tanks skew this shit up, because they move with full camo, blazingly fast

By the way, my most played high tiers are WZ11114, WZ12O, E5O, E5OM, 121, and fast TD such as Fochs / SU12254. So yes, I don't forbid playing mobile tanks. 

 

 

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Sorry, but if you think spotting in a light tank is without risk I'm not sure I can take you seriously.

The maps where passive scouting is a viable tactics are down to what, 2? 3? And even there you are often trying to spot super-heavies hiding behind a magical bush that makes them undetectable.

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Whats wrong with your ơ key? :P

yeah i agree that arty is still cancer and LTs are capable of sitting in a bush and getting 12k spotting from 150m away. its bad. But they are real tanks (even the aids wheelies) but they definitely should limit how many per match. maybe every 2k spotting they lose 10% camo because of RDF or something? 

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10 hours ago, Kymrel said:

Sorry, but if you think spotting in a light tank is without risk I'm not sure I can take you seriously.

The maps where passive scouting is a viable tactics are down to what, 2? 3? And even there you are often trying to spot super-heavies hiding behind a magical bush that makes them undetectable.

The risks, constitute:   A) getting himmels, which you turn off.  B)  getting Ensk, which you also turn off.  C) running into an EBR which prevents your spotting position, which is a light tank itself.....

Seriously, those are the only two maps that severely hamper the use of a light tank. Sure, you cannot get 6K assisted damage on Empires border or mines or mountain pass.....as you can on malinovka or redshire. But it is not underheard of getting 2K fairly easily. Especially early game mountain pass where people basically have to cross either spawn lake inlets. 

Westfield, Studzi, Steppes, Malin, Redshire, Prokh, murovan, fishermans bay, live oaks, el halleuf.....l think there are more than 2-3 scouting maps....

 

Let us look at it like this.  ls a super heavy tank at risk sitting on a corner in himmels or ensk? Well, not from arty, granted. But you can still get shot in the face by someone unwilling to play your 'game' with 34Omm HEAT.  or Sheridan/Type 5 just slinging HE? FVs anyone? Heck even 6OTP, T11OE4, E-Hundo, 7O5A, Jag Pz do it. Not too fun.  The problem lies in stagnation, well this sort of grinding, heavy, stationary play slows games down. 0f course, but you SEE him doing it, you can avoid it. You can't SEE lame light tanks stagnating gameplay, in their bushes. You can't avoid a large portion of these. Especially maps like Malin, Prokh, Redshire, Murovan  -  where important bushes cover huge swathes of territory. 

No one is calling light tanks overpowered here,  well except EBR, Type 64, Type 62, LT432. But at a basic tech tree level, not many are. Much like artillery, they are not overpowered. They are broken. The outrage over EBRs, are they have -more- broken features, than normal light tanks. They have features which wreck game balance. They allow users the opportunity to fairly easily do something. Despite their simplicity, do arty or light tanks score 2.5K DPG? Heck do they even do 2K in most hands. An obj 9O7 easily accomplishes 3.5-4K in any reputable streamers hands. Let us not forget what people complain about, broken vs overpowered. Light tanks are bad for the game, cause stagnation, and punish aggressive play.

 

 

 

 

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So, WOTLABS now is about bitching about the ability of light tanks to use camo and spot in the corridor meta?  Considering lights need to proxy spot the last TD's in their double bush cocoons because no one else mounts vision equipment or trains vision skills?

Fuck, whatever

 

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Not sure why you would damage farm in an LT instead of actually scout in one when you can just play a medium and damage farm 100000x better because your gun isn't massively gimped in every stat for the sake of mobility. 

 

Passive LTs haven't really been much of a thing since 2014, especially since EBRs are a thing now. 

The only things that can even really try to passive scout most of the time are things like the ELC EVEN which passive scouts in the enemy half of the map. 

 

The British LTs all universally are shit because passive scouting is what WG wanted them to be for. 

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11 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Not sure why you would damage farm in an LT instead of actually scout in one when you can just play a medium and damage farm 100000x better because your gun tank* isn't massively gimped in every stat for the sake of mobility speed.

Ftfy

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7 hours ago, leggasiini said:

Remember when this forum used to be a chill safeplace from all the idiots from official forums and in-game? Good times...

Also this Dirizon dude really should fix his zero-key :minidoge:

Yes. I remember. Good times. And yes he should. 

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On 11/12/2019 at 7:12 PM, Diriz0n said:

ơ  LT promote extreme passive play. Unlike arty they don't bomb and stun people far away, sure. But they spot for the arty to bomb and stun people. They don't suffer camo on the move penalty, making their job quite easy and extremely frustrating to counter late game. Even bad camo LT, can sit in a bush with binocs / camo next and dramatically increase their camo/view range, to which you never spot them unless literally running into them or have an EBR run into them.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this premise.

To have a battle one side needs to know where the other sides tanks are.  Vision and map control can be acquired with both active and passive techniques OR players simply understand the corridor choke points and presume the red tanks will show up there negating the need for extreme vision.  Frankly, the "World of Heavy Tanks" meta is not something most remaining players look forward to.

For many casual players it is their understanding (or lack) of game flow and map knowledge that creates/allows passive play.  They don't know where; tanks could be, tanks should be, or what areas provides map control and strategic advantages.  So they wait in some presumed safe area (or OP area) until there are tanks to shoot, or not shoot as often the case becomes.

Conversely, with some vision and intel of where red tanks are they are comfortable to wait and snipe from their presumed safe area (or OP area). 

Vision and lack of vision are two sides to the "Passive Play" coin.  To attribute passive play to light tanks is as retarded as truly believing the "Arty promotes dynamic game play" meme.
 

On 11/12/2019 at 7:12 PM, Diriz0n said:

ơ   Arty punishing aggressive gameplay?  Well, it is very very very likely a hidden light tank, that hasn't move in a minute, spotted you making an aggressive play, to which you get punished by arty or TD. Sure, it is easy to get caught up, and angry over passive play from TD and definitely, point and click sky shits - but where is the root of the problem? A lazy cock light tank making it all happen. The light tank is pointing and clicking too, he just is Teeing, not firing.

The pure passive scout has gone the way of the dodo years ago.  Except for EBRs themselves current meta makes is almost impossible. 

Notwithstanding the recent British light tanks (and some specialized cases), pretty much any competent light tank player forgoes the Binocs/Net for combat capability and maneuverability.  The exception to this rule is again; the players noted above who use them because they don't fully understand scout roles (or have a myopic view of tank roles) and maps while often have limited garages/resources.       

 

On 11/12/2019 at 7:12 PM, Diriz0n said:

ơ   of all the TK, how many are TKs on light tanks too teams are angry over? Just because team-dmg is turned off, doesn't mean TK are off. Allies push you, nudge you off edges, block you in wrecks, drown you, Etc.

Just like in all matches there are good and bad players in each class and role.  The perceived role of scout tanks and "abuse" light tanks generally endure stem from the fact that they are perceived as NOT providing the vision or intel required to advance the match. 

Often this "abuse" is from the truly clueless and equally often the criticism is well deserved.
 

On 11/12/2019 at 7:12 PM, Diriz0n said:

But besides brown sky farts, no other class causes as much trouble as lights. People, newcomers especially, leave this game over the fact retartded invisible light tanks are preying on them, half the problem of low tier clubbing constitutes light tanks. Heavy tanks in city maps are annoying, sure but can be avoided - unless what you are driving is something like Strv. I have seen soft skins like AMX3O, Leo, STB1, Grille 15, FV4K5 do just fine in city maps and close encounters. But for Strv, that is on you for not turning off Ensk and Himmels. So what is the problem here, the results that light tanks can get so easily? No, because spotting and contesting map area are  part of the game  --  it is just the easy mode in which they are able to do it. (like arty, isn't it? Free damage?)  Medium tanks can step in and do the role of scouting, at a much fairer, riskier, healthier way.

And this applies to CW, too. Clan Wars was just fucking fine with Bat Chat 25 doing that shit. Light tanks are toxic in that venue, too.

Lol, this is plain an simple Official forum drivel.

People leave the game because of the learning curve.  Its surface appearance is simple, but learning the mechanics and doing well takes effort and is hard.  To get that successful feedback loop from other games, it only takes memorizing a few controls/moves and the first 3 levels to want to continue.

On 11/12/2019 at 7:12 PM, Diriz0n said:

Medium tanks can step in and do the role of scouting, at a much fairer, riskier, healthier way.

And this applies to CW, too. Clan Wars was just fucking fine with Bat Chat 25 doing that shit. Light tanks are toxic in that venue, too.

Scouting is a skill set and a role and is only loosely tied to tank class.  Again, its not the tank class that is the problem its the player base knowledge.


  

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Then what is wrong with arty. It is fine as a class.  EBRs are fine. Does an EBR75 deal 2.5DPG a game like progetto or SkorpG? Does EBR1O5 deal 3.5K like an obj 9O7. 

I rather face a scrub in an arty, do 1, 6OO dmg a game, who stuns me for 13 seconds and only deals 175dmg to an E5OM;  than deal with a purple player in FV421 or obj 9O7  -  consistently dealing 4K and toppling teams. 

Arty isn't a problem at all, because it isn't overpowered. Broken does not mean a thing.

 

Btw-  people farm dmg in LT because as a platform, they offer better mobility than medium tanks, and smaller profile allowing them to use smaller bushes. Their movement camo helps them greatly, whereas medium tanks take 25% penalty. This is incredibly useful in spotting + immediate reversing to double bush or get bush opaqueness.  In a TD or med, the same maneuver could get you spotted because your camo drops.  Lastly, people also enjoy farming damage in light tanks to take advantage of WN8 attributed to lights. 

 

 

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Fuck i love farming 3k damage in LTs on open maps when I can just play the 907 and farm 5k on the same map. Or farming SFA because its Ensk as an LT as opposed to being useful with more hp, armour, DPM, pen and accuracy over an LT in a 907.

People farm damage in LTs because they're stat-whoring morons who are willing to be 1/5th as effective for purple stats. If you play an LT you are going to early-scout. What is the point of your mobility otherwise?

If you think people farm damage in an LT because of their mobility, you are clearly a retard. People have been farming damage in LTs since forever because its the least damage/effort per wn8 you can do in this game. There is no other reason. Purple WN8, green WR. WN8 is everything because NA.

And if you cant figure out why the EBR is broken, you are a fucking retard. Try hitting the fucker. A 43%er driving like a moron will just absorb all the shots you take at it in the wheels. They will spot you 50m from spawn because of how fast they are and you can't do anything when arty/TDs/that EBR decides to fuck you over because you literally just drove from spawn.
Plus they make literally all other LTs in the game useless.

What is the point of playing a T-100 when an EBR can just drive up to your bush and proxy you without taking any damage because no one can hit it? Plus it'll spot you before you get near the bush anyway because its faster than you. 
 

 

 

 

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How can someone hate on lights? Only the EBR is extremely annoying, especially when the team underrates it and just lets it run around. The rest are fun to play and not a problem to play against. The Russian ones are much better than their counterparts though. T100 vs Manticore lol.

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Mobility is important in accruing damage. LT may not have the reliable guns medium tanks do, in order to do so,  but have excellent small size except the American ones to use very small bushes to boost their camo. They retain their camo on the move, whereas medium tanks take 25% camo penalty. This is extremely important for abandoning lost flanks and rejoining new ones, in order to find damage - something that hay lead TD and meds taking damage to do so. They are far more suited to backing up 15m and using bush opaqueness than any other class, and their far stronger HP/T and reverse speed puts most med even to shame. 

If you think high mobility with less present risk, is not akin to the procurement of more possible dmg, you are an imbecile.

Are they better at farming dmg? No, but they are given more opportunity to do so, even if their guns can't match the opportunities presented. And for high scores, they don't have to put out as much too, taking advantage of WN8. I am not exactly advocating the farming of WN8, in say something low tier and/or clubbing like ELC BiS, or Type 64  -  but it goes to say if you are farming damage in tanks like WZ132A or AMX139O or T92 or Senlac - you most certainly are not playing low tiers and seal clubbing for high scores. 

EBR are broken for more than just light tank quality. But on top of normal light tank quality, with the absence of 1 thing:  view range they have all the normal qualities light tanks have,  0N T0P 0F THEIR NEWLY ADDED broken parameters. Enough said. So not only does an EBR have insane top speed, illegal auto aim, high velocity ammunition to use that auto aim, high pen HE to use that auto aim, excellent gun handling for use in auto aim, trollollo tires in their defense, cannot over-turn and time out in their defense, excellent reverse speed, speeds which can overcome some blocked off passages which lead to climbing in maps still......they add these to the inherit light tank bonus such as faster repair speed base, high base camo, camo on the move, low light tank soft stats, high HP/T, small size, Etc. 

 

On 11/14/2019 at 10:32 PM, MagicalFlyingFox said:


 

I hate light tanks because they are toxic support classes which do the same shit as artillery. Artillery and TD punishing aggressive play and maneuvers? It is likely because a light tank spotted the maneuver first to begin with. Laid back TD, and forest spawn camping arty aren't aggressors or retaliators - they are force multipliers which shoot from afar to what is spoon fed spotted for them. Sure, it is easy to get mad at them, but alot of their results are brought on by either LT class:  a rabid speeding EBR, or a hidden wanker light tank. 

If arty are removed from a class, and all existing arty become HE gun TD instead,  like a Hetzer,  removing indirect support and stuns......the same should be done with light tanks. Light tanks should be re-branded as either TD or mediums, and have their camo on the move taken away. In turn, they can get normal expected med firepower and behave like the already present lighter medium tanks  IE:  Leo, AMX3O, CDC. This just removes broken from the game.

 

 

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Assassin7

neg rep on wotlabs isn't an "I disagree with you" button.

neg rep is a "your post is shit" button. 

the overwhelming majority of wotlab goers are able to use it as such, not many posts get neg repped.

 

Actually, according to this, it is quite justified. I firmly believe that it is quite a shit post. Don't get me wrong, I'm no angel, if you think I post quite shitty, feel free to leave your opinion, vote, and go on right ahead and continue. I don't judge. I am contemplating right now too, with your recent post, which equally seems shitty and stupid, should be merited another too.

 

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