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Supertest: bat-chatillon 12t mle 54

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• Engine power: from 335 to 310
• Specific power: from 25.75 to 23.79
• Camouflage while stationary: from 14.48 / 2.87 to 19.27 / 3.81
• Camouflage while moving: from 19.27 / 3.81 to 14.48 / 2.87
• View range: from 350 to 390 m

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I dislike the gimmick tanks altogether...

 

Don't misunderstand, I do enjoy variety of choices, its simply that strictly limiting vehicles into specific roles tends to infringe on the flexibility of others.

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14 hours ago, hazzgar said:

Light tanks are op according to you and you want to buff elc even 90? LOL

Also if you buff elc even 90 it will be op. It's a decent tank now and with that camo too strong gun will make it broken as fuck. The gun is trash but people don't know how to abuse the size of the little shit. Use binocs+optics for a mix of passive and active and jesus this thing is good. Too good gun and it will make e25 look like an amx40.  You also want more HP, faster shell? As someone with 1.5k battles in the tank and someone who used to be top10 on EU regurarly I welcome that but I doubt you will be happy with good players abusing the tank

Broken. Never said op, and you know it. Arty are op? That what you believe, as well? They are broken. =/= op.

Buffing a tank does not have to make it op. Is indien panzer op? Well it is a hell of alot better than 1yr ago. What about Type 61. op tank?

It is funny how you talk about size here, while basically ignoring my whole line of argument concerning size, when we debated LT. Size surely is co-related to camo, but the 2 are distinguished and different. 

I did not say mega buff the tank like T-44-Hundo or T54Mod1 or Caernarvon. And let us get real, some mega buffs don't even work, and shit still goes unnoticed. obj 268 got mega-buffs, 113 got megabuffs - more than once, and now what are they? Where are they? Like seriously, 113 and 121 are among my favourite tier X vehicles, but subjectively lets ignore that and properly look at this, objectively.....what can I do in them and not do it 2x better in Chieftain, obj 26O, or obj 43OU instead? At their best, they are a heap of mediocre bleh. 

-- the gun of Even 9O should mimic AMXELC gun. They are the same size and length, in all likelihood gun variants of each other post-war. Should be the same 93Om/s velocity and 24O alpha. These types of changes have been made before, and they don't make vehicles op as a result. Twenty percent shell velocity may seem major, but really isn't. I can think of 1 tank that has become op with shell velocity changes, and it surely isn't solely because of shell velocity changes only. WZ111, 112, T-34-3, obj268, Mutz all got velocity changes, non are op. T3485M got an entirely new gun, hardly a mere velocity change, and monstrous DPM  -  we can all agree its not just velocity making it op

-- 22O alpha doesn't change much when increased to 24O alpha. Didn't make Soviet/Chinese 1Ocm guns op going from 23O to 25O.  Didn't make German 88 going from 22O to 24O op. Is Mutz op now doing 25O?  lol   Caernarvon certainly changed going from 25O-28O, but more so because of fire rate. Always deserved that anyway, because the tier 4  94mm  (its bore size) does 28O anyway

-- giving Even 9O  twenty extra horses don't make it op, 23 HP/T going to 26 doesn't change anything. It still wouldn't match other LT peers in tier in HP/T. If they can cram that engine in AMXELC, they can in an Even 9O too

 

increase rate of fire to 5.5, and your DPM with 24O alpha is 1,344. That is still 75 less than TV tank, which itself is massively lower than other tier 8 LT. Bat Chat 12T, a same tier autoloader would still have two-hundred more DPM  (still shitty DPM)  With better gun handling. 72O clip doesn't change much in posing a danger compared to 66O. And let us not even compare EBR75 DPM as a clip LT. Twenty extra HP doesn't provide much, vehicle itself still lower bracket in tier for LT HP/T.  A hundred hit points doesn't mean much, do people rag on T92 for having too much HP? Like even fifty would make sense, just giving it more than armoured cars, to which it should have anyway. These are all very minor buffs, and don't break Even 9O. They just make it more bearable.

Type 64 is a cheap buy, anyone can purchase it and just that, most play like shit. LT432 is self explanatory, basically affording luxury of a medium tank except HP and pen. EBR75 needs no explanations. EBR1O5 is relatively new, meaning fewer individuals (the individuals that grind quickly or have lots of free exp) retrieve it and do more or less well, as opposed to those who pick a direction and hold down W and die in 1min.  Premium tanks generally do better than tech tree vehicles, especially evident in post-pref MM prem vehicles. 

You are too subjective. You are crazy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

Buffing a tank does not have to make it op. Is indien panzer op? Well it is a hell of alot better than 1yr ago. What about Type 61. op tank?

No but buffing a tank with 52.4% overall WR makes it OP. Indien Panzer is better than it was but it was UP. ELC Even 90 is overperforming. it has a higher overall win rate than Obj430. Would you buff obj 430? 

 

5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

It is funny how you talk about size here, while basically ignoring my whole line of argument concerning size, when we debated LT. Size surely is co-related to camo, but the 2 are distinguished and different. 

Because we talked about lights in general. If you argued ELC EVEN 90 is broken I'd agree. If you compare ELC Even to for example type64 you have a tank that's 50% the height, 60% the length. It's smaller than other lights.

 

5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

I did not say mega buff the tank like T-44-Hundo or T54Mod1 or Caernarvon.

No, you said  buff a tank that has better overall performance than 2/3 of the tanks you mentioned.

 

5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

-- the gun of Even 9O should mimic AMXELC gun.

Why? The tank is performing well. 

 

5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

These types of changes have been made before, and they don't make vehicles op as a result

They were not made to tanks that were already borderline op.

 

5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

22O alpha doesn't change much when increased to 24O alpha

But you didn't say only increase 220 to 240 alpha. You Said:

  1. Add 20 alpha
  2. Increase shell speed
  3. Add HP
  4. Increase Speed/agility
  5. Increase ROF
    5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

    And let us not even compare EBR75 DPM as a clip LT

    Let's Not. Let's compare both tanks. ELC EVEN 90 has higher server WR on EU

5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

A hundred hit points doesn't mean much, do people rag on T92 for having too much HP?

T92 also has low top speed, low alpha and few things going for it. 

 

5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

They just make it more bearable.

The tank is already very bearable. It's not the tanks fault you suck in it. Most people don't. Again the average WR on EU is 52.4% WR. Which is higher than your overall WR. 

 

5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

Type 64 is a cheap buy, anyone can purchase it and just that, most play like shit. LT432 is self explanatory, basically affording luxury of a medium tank except HP and pen. EBR75 needs no explanations. EBR1O5 is relatively new, meaning fewer individuals (the individuals that grind quickly or have lots of free exp)

So what you are saying is that type64 may be better but EBR105 isn't so the tank overall is still at the same #4 spot for light tanks? It's nice you are arguing with yourself. Though I agree type64 is better, EBR105 is worse than elc even 90.

 

5 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

You are too subjective. You are crazy.

I'm actually refering to tanks stats. You are refering to your feel of the tank. Also I'm 100% sure I'm way more adapt at being closer to objectivity than you since again. I'm an analyst and forecaster by job. 

 

 

Still I'm all for the buffs for ELC EVEN 90. I Will ruin the life of people like you even better. Noobs don't like the tank while I love it. Even on my 16fps laptop, min settings that hurts my overall WR by 4-5% with only 20% prem loadout I pulled 66-67% WR in it. Buffs? Yes please. I will repair my pc and have the highest consistent WR for any tank I ever had. 

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Crap pen, crap aimtime, crap accuracy = crap tank.

That is just a recipe for frustration, regardless of other attributes IMO. The Super Hellcat has very good mobility, very good aim time. very good camo, but is still frustrating to play because you don't pen or hit a lot of shots, this will be even worse. 

Neither of these new meds impress me, they just look like very bad Czech auto-loaders with a bit more mobility. 

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1 hour ago, Oicraftian said:

You know if you all just used the ignore function on Dirizon I wouldn't have to see you quoting him.

 

It seems like WG is deciding burst aids is the next step in further damaging the game.

I have ADHD and I have problems with self control when it comes to correcting people who are clearly wrong. It's a compulsion but I like it. 

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33 minutes ago, sohojacques said:

Looks like a personality crisis tank to me. 
 

If WG cared about the tech tree they’d branch the MT lines off the 1375 with this and make the tier 8 12t grind far less painful. 

WG caring about tech trees is about as likely as them saying they will never ever sell such and such a tank again and actually following through :serb:

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10 hours ago, hazzgar said:

I have ADHD and I have problems with self control when it comes to correcting people who are clearly wrong. It's a compulsion but I like it. 

I am not wrong.

Type 64 had higher winrate than pre-nerf Patch 9.17 light tanks like T37. And Type 64 wasn't even close to matching something like T37. M41GF wasn't as powerful as pre-nerf RU251, T54LT, WZ132, T49  -  but I am sure played better. Though not always the case, more likely it is more commonly the case  -  in winrate prem tanks do better than tech tree tanks. For instance, KV2(R) will do better than KV2. HK3O will do better than HK12. Defender will do better than IS3. Certainly, there are examples like Stug lV or Panther 88, that just do abysmal but they are outnumbered by premium tanks that do better than tech tree peers. 

Indien panzer was bad, but still had good med DPM, good gun depression. In its buffs, they actually even increased the DPM more, and still it isn't op. Minor tweaks to Even 9O won't make it op. 

And by the way, obj 14O wasn't under performing. And they went ahead and buffed that no problem. obj 43OU and obj 43O are very much so over performing, and basically side line 113 and 121 - and were supposed to be nerfed, and WG immediately bit its tongue and recalled the nerfs like Communist comrades they are. The obj 26O and T55A were not under performing, certainly not like T28 HTC and Stug lV, that fucking shit didn't matter and they mega buffed them anyway. Was obj 279E under performing, underwhelming, that they decided to buff that piece of shit too? You don't know what WG is all about, in their roll of the dice in buffing and nerfing. 

Even 9O is over performing, because of the select crowd who buy it, generally perform better than those who don't. And those who don't buy, are the people who grind through light tanks, and play like shit in them and all the tier 8 tech tree LT, simply making Even 9O look good. 

 

List all the buffs caernarvon got. It wasn't just fire rate. Then do it with Indien panzer, again not just fire rate. How about Type 61. 113. obj 268. Heck even Leo and Leo proto, I would say they are good now, but op? Not even close. obj 14O and obj 9O7, clan wars dominant vehicles at the time, got further buffed for.......what reasons? All the buffs listed, are minor. They won't realistically change the tank. 1152 DPM isn't done any major favours, by increasing to 1344. Still a ridiculously low, slimy DPM that even Brit LT tanks out pace. 3HP/T won't break a vehicle, with already low HP/T category among peers. 66O clip doesn't gain any notable potential when increased to 72O. 5O added HP, doesn't tend to make something op.  You are being ridiculous now. 

And go ahead, you can be as annoying as you want in it. There are hundreds, thousands of annoying people in arty that everyone everyday has to deal with. How the fuck does it make any difference? 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Diriz0n said:

I am not wrong.

the thing is, you almost always are? :doge: 

as someone who has played this game for a living i'm pretty sure there is absolutely zero, zilch, nada you could teach me in this game

which should make it simple to understand that when i say you are, you are

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1 hour ago, kolni said:

the thing is, you almost always are? :doge: 

as someone who has played this game for a living i'm pretty sure there is absolutely zero, zilch, nada you could teach me in this game

which should make it simple to understand that when i say you are, you are

and..... Mr beetlebum plays this game for a living. Does he even scratch 51%? Your fucking point? Everyone is wrong, at a certain time, but the concern here is French mediums, and solely that. 0thers have openly said that they too, would agree bat chat 12T has too much of a grind to it, and welcome the idea of another french med line towards Bat chat 25, starting earlier. I don't think people would be quick to disagree on new tech trees, so far as they are not punched out like obj 268V4 or an arty line.

Are you trying to say, that premium tanks don't typically (read, typically, not always) have higher win rates than tech tree counterparts? I never said I wanted to teach your ass anything, nor would I even want to. Not even if I was paid to, Mr. ass-on-a-chair for a living. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

and..... Mr beetlebum plays this game for a living. Does he even scratch 51%? Your fucking point? Everyone is wrong, at a certain time, but the concern here is French mediums, and solely that. 0thers have openly said that they too, would agree bat chat 12T has too much of a grind to it, and welcome the idea of another french med line towards Bat chat 25, starting earlier. I don't think people would be quick to disagree on new tech trees, so far as they are not punched out like obj 268V4 or an arty line.

Are you trying to say, that premium tanks don't typically (read, typically, not always) have higher win rates than tech tree counterparts? I never said I wanted to teach your ass anything, nor would I even want to. Not even if I was paid to, Mr. ass-on-a-chair for a living. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure one of the best active players on EU can tell you, you are wrong and when he does you should listen. When he does tell you you are almost always wrong that's a reason to maybe rethink your positions and maybe start arguing with him once a reasonable goal for you is 5k dpg sessions not 1.8k dpg sessions.

 

Others who agree with you are pub forum reds not good players. 

 

Also new prems have higher win rates. ELC EVEN 90 is popular. There was already the 3 mark requirement drop that comes from the general public getting a tank in large numbers. 

 

Also you ommit one key problem. ELC EVEN 90 is performing well EVEN FOR A PREMIUM TANK. It's performing better than most t8 premium tanks!!! So your shitty excuse "but premiums get higher wr" doesn't really work for a tank that gets higher wr than most premiums. From T8 prems you can buy it's #8 and that includes the inflated WR Renegade and the double posting of Defender and obj252U. There are OVER 50 T8 premium tanks that perform worse than it. FFs you complain about lights with lower win rate being broken but want to buff Top5 light tank in the game and one that is actually broken. 

 

 

btw. I find it funny you call WG communists. A Tax evading, company  with huge offices in Cyprus is communist? Yeah lol. 

6 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

Even 9O is over performing, because of the select crowd who buy it, generally perform better than those who don't

The thing is - a select crew doesn't buy the elc even 90. The tank population is very high. Also As I've mentioned the 3 marks dropped since it was released. Probably by around 300-400 combined on EU. This means the owners are no longer only purple.

6 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

List all the buffs caernarvon got. It wasn't just fire rate.

Do you suffer from some kind of a memory problem that makes you forget your own arguments? You yourself are asking for more than RoF buffs for ELC EVEN 90. You are asking for ROF, Alpha, Shell speed, HP, Speed. 

6 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

HK3O will do better than HK12. Defender will do better than IS3

I'm starting to think you qualify for a special tax deduction if you think the only reason those tanks have different win rates is because one is premium and another is not. 

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21 hours ago, Ezz said:

Seems very divisive this tank. The mix of vision and mobility mixed with burst and dpm is basically best in tier, yet the derp and low pen could be a real screen puncher.

Is the mobility even that good? Yeh like 2-3 years ago it probably was, but we have WVs now, we have lights with 30+ hp/ton, this thing has light tank pen and light tank health pretty much, but now has nerfed 23 hp/ton speed and a 62kph top speed.

French tanks also seem to usually have average ground resistances.

I mean the Progetto goes 55kph, has nearly 19 hp/ton with amazing ground resistances, has more health than this thing, more pen on both rounds, better gun depression, better gun handling, way better accuracy.

Is this tank likely to go that much faster than a Progetto? Probably not IMO, and it's nowhere near in terms of gun capability. 

Also just noticed the 6 degrees of gun depression which is awkward as hell for something paper. 

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21 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Is the mobility even that good? Yeh like 2-3 years ago it probably was, but we have WVs now, we have lights with 30+ hp/ton, this thing has light tank pen and light tank health pretty much, but now has nerfed 23 hp/ton speed and a 62kph top speed.

French tanks also seem to usually have average ground resistances.

I mean the Progetto goes 55kph, has nearly 19 hp/ton with amazing ground resistances, has more health than this thing, more pen on both rounds, better gun depression, better gun handling, way better accuracy.

Is this tank likely to go that much faster than a Progetto? Probably not IMO, and it's nowhere near in terms of gun capability. 

Also just noticed the 6 degrees of gun depression which is awkward as hell for something paper. 

Yeah the ground resistance is an unknown (unless i missed it on one of the sites) but given it's only 12t i hope it won't be anything crazy like the CDC. Unless wg screw it over that is. It should be quicker anywhere than a prog (and any other med) - whether that makes any difference of course is basically going to be fringe cases.

From a vision perspective (yay for the rare occasion you get to use it) it looks to have better on the move camo than any other 8 med and is only shaded by the 416 for stationary (but i haven't put a crew in it so that's just extrapolating from the figures TAP posted). And 390 VR is near top of class, esp considering all the 400m meds have shitty camo. Again of marginal benefit, but it's still a leader. 

Burst and dpm wise it's again up there. You're basically doing a full prog clip in half the time, then if the prog fired 3, he'll have 480 at the ready while you'll have 720. The only things that beat it from a dpm perspective are the sta 1 and 416 (<-speaking of awkward...). Things like the lorry can out burst it but have to then deal with a much longer reload - hence the considerably lower dpm.

And yeah, then there are all the shitty things... pen, accuracy, aim time (tho we don't know dispersion which will be a make or break basically), HE pennable armor, and probably a shit radio too ;).

Hence the whole 'divisive' line. Imo it will be an interesting option, not as reliable as the lorry and prog, but that's basically comparing to two pretty broken tanks.

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2 hours ago, Ezz said:

Yeah the ground resistance is an unknown (unless i missed it on one of the sites) but given it's only 12t i hope it won't be anything crazy like the CDC. Unless wg screw it over that is. It should be quicker anywhere than a prog (and any other med) - whether that makes any difference of course is basically going to be fringe cases.

From a vision perspective (yay for the rare occasion you get to use it) it looks to have better on the move camo than any other 8 med and is only shaded by the 416 for stationary (but i haven't put a crew in it so that's just extrapolating from the figures TAP posted). And 390 VR is near top of class, esp considering all the 400m meds have shitty camo. Again of marginal benefit, but it's still a leader. 

Burst and dpm wise it's again up there. You're basically doing a full prog clip in half the time, then if the prog fired 3, he'll have 480 at the ready while you'll have 720. The only things that beat it from a dpm perspective are the sta 1 and 416 (<-speaking of awkward...). Things like the lorry can out burst it but have to then deal with a much longer reload - hence the considerably lower dpm.

And yeah, then there are all the shitty things... pen, accuracy, aim time (tho we don't know dispersion which will be a make or break basically), HE pennable armor, and probably a shit radio too ;).

Hence the whole 'divisive' line. Imo it will be an interesting option, not as reliable as the lorry and prog, but that's basically comparing to two pretty broken tanks.

3.4s aim time, unless the dispersions are amazing, means a lot of the time it's never going to do it's clip speed. 

It's a paper tank with bad gun handling, bad accuracy, bad gun depression, bad penetration, that has such a bad aim time it's burst speed is irrelevant.

To me it's looking like a much bigger, slower, worse camo Even 90, with worse gun depression, that gets DPM and alpha, the Even 90 IMO only works because of it's size and camo adds funky vision games, if you have to actually do damage with it, the gun is terrible and unreliable. 

IMO great guns more often than not make up for mediocre platforms (Renegade being a recent example) but good platforms don't make up for terrible guns. 

I feel like this thing will spend the entire time fighting that gun depression, aim time, accuracy, pen that you'll never really feel the value of the burst unless you are literally poking your gun into the target (and in that sort of situation clip speed is not that important), whilst a Progetto has peeked, clipped out a couple of shells, and retreated, this thing will be poking that big paper turret out, aiming for days, to then miss or bounce the majority of its shots. 

You might as well have something like the Lansen C or UDES 14-5 that can snap out 320 or 260 alpha at decent rates with much better aim times/accuracy/pen and gun depression.

That gun to me has Foch 155 written all over it,  720 DPM because you'll probably only pen/hit about 50% of your shots. 

Can we also note that we are about to have a tier 8 heavy that is going to be able to do 780 instantly, and has pretty much the same aim time/accuracy, amazing dispersion levels and much better pen. 

That is what irks me the most, this is a paper medium, it should have good gun handling, better than most heavies regardless of the auto-loader, you shouldn't ever get outsnappped by heavies in a paper med, its what you are supposed to be trading the armour and HP for, mobility, gun handling and DPM. 

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Definitely agree it's not one of the broken prems, but i also don't think it will be horrible. We aren't talking cdc or anything crazy bad. It will have its moments. At range you'll have time to aim and it will then come down to after firing dispersion for the second shot. Mid range it will suck. Short range and as long as you can pen it will be dangerous.

Bear in mind also 0.42 base is only 0.04 worse than quite a few tanks (lorry udes 14 off top of my head). The obj 430 is rather usable at 0.42 tho obviously that has armor and good pen to allow trading. This will have 720 alpha.

In a way i see it playing a bit like a T49 in ways. Gimmicky, sometimes good and if you can control engagements rather spicey.

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I think its hard to argue that it won't be aids to play and play against. No one likes getting bursted for 720 by a (relatively) fast tank. It will probably have serious camo too.

 

About the differing L7 alpha, L7 seems to have been a bad idea to start with. A gun with pen, velocity, accuracy, is already well off. Giving it alpha is overkill. Seems to me like heavies going down the drain (back in the day, though I've only heard, not seen it) is (was) more caused by a combination of factors; not just gold ammo 'negating' the armor.

Ah, Soviet TX medium guns have a different issue, since its not the gun but the DPM in their case.

When I was thinking about the situation that was my conclusion anyway. That the gulf in performance of guns was the more important factor. And that it was not a good balance decision to leave it that way. I would have thought more alpha should have gone to the less flexible (Soviets) and more DPM to the more flexible (others). Flexibility by gun depression - mobility combination.

Soviet mediums always annoyed me.

 

From a balance perspective, I think only T-62A is even acceptable. Though T-62A for some reason lost gun depression and gained armor. (7* IRL, turret face is 219-ish with smaller area).

140 is too mobile. I don't like it. I think the Soviets should have been a medium-heavy tree, where both medium and heavy lines had that same kind of characteristic. Top speed could have been high, but the line would favor high low-medium speed, as opposed to high.

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