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Tarski

Low-tier tech tree pruning and other balance patch discussion

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Edit. For anyone just reading this thread, tier 1-5 vehicles are not being removed, they are being moved from the tech tree to a Collector's Vehicles section that is unlocked when you hit tier 6 in the appropriate tree. They are still purchased for credits. Zero vehicles are being yoinked from garages at any tier. However, there are some high tier vehicles that are exiting the tech tree like the FV215b and Foch 155 did, turning into reward tanks. Read the thread for more details. 

From WoT Express, here are the proposed slimmed-down tech trees. This is more drastic than I imagined. 

From TAP's elaboration: 

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The New Balance patch brings many improvements to the game, one of these: Tech Tree rework. Many tanks (92) were removed to reduce clutter in tech trees, to simplify the grind. Many low tier and some top tier vehicles like AMX 30B & 30 Prototype, Jagdpanther 2 and T-62A were removed from tech trees. Don’t worry, most of the removed vehicles will become reward tanks and be available to those who own them and also be featured in the future as event rewards.

 

 

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This is stupid. I have a number of issues with this.

 

  1. Removal of content which will later be issued as rewards or purchasable in game on special occasion (perhaps for inflated prices). It feels like they are removing previously unlock-able stuff to give themselves more to work with and encourage monetization.
  2. Removal of more iconic tanks and generally quite historical ones. Like it or not, one major draw of WOT is in the tanks. What does it say when tanks like the firefly or the hetzer are being removed?
  3. Some loss of mobility on a tech tree. As an example, from the Pz 4H you can research 4 tier 10 tanks currently. With the changes you can only research 1. Tiger P, 3 to 2. HWK 12, 2 to 1. Panther, 2 to 1. Just to pull examples from the German tech tree.
  4. Removal of tier 10's. Besides the obvious, this is absolutely horrible to players who aren't so aware of changes being made to the game. Some poor sod somewhere is working towards the AMX 30 as his first tier 10, and then fines that suddenly his tier 9 with 150,000 experience is made a reward vehicle and leads nowhere.
  5. (sorta) Are players who have researched the tanks going to recieve the tanks even if they don't have them in the garage? If you want any of the removed tanks, and they don't receive any tank (or don't offer experience refunds) seems like great way to sell some garage slots for those who don't have a ton of them. 

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9 minutes ago, Ezz said:

I'm feeling like a change adverse fuddy duddy but yeah, not seeing this as anything other than a step backwards.

Yeah, I was okay with the pruning when I thought it would amount to combining some of the low tier tanks that are variants of the same tank. Removing 92 tanks, including tier 8, 9, and 10 tanks, is moving backward. One of the most popular things WG ever does is add new tech tree branches to the game, and this undoes that. My first reaction is "too much change and some of it is bad." We'll see how this develops. 

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Are players who have researched the tanks going to receive the tanks even if they don't have them in the garage?

If memory serves, you were required to have the vehicle in the garage the last couple times this happened. 

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Also worth noting some of the replacements which are being made here; some tanks are being outright removed and replaced with another tank currently not in the game. Or tanks are being shifted up with another being added in its place.

For instance, the A-20 is gone replaced by an uptiered BT-7 with a BT-5 added in. The M3 Lee is replaced with the T6 Medium. Crusader is at tier 6 (and a light again), and the tier 5 spot for the medium line gets the cavalier.

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The low tier tanks that disappear from the tree are not being removed. They are still available for credits to anyone who has reached tier 6 in that nation's tech tree, but instead of being in the tree they are in a special Collectors' Vehicles section of the UI. It's just that they aren't part of the research tree. 

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10 minutes ago, Tarski said:

The low tier tanks that disappear from the tree are not being removed. They are still available for credits to anyone who has reached tier 6 in that nation's tech tree, but instead of being in the tree they are in a special Collectors' Vehicles section of the UI. It's just that they aren't part of the research tree. 

Better, but sadly that does nothing for the high tier vehicles.

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8 minutes ago, Ogopogo said:

Better, but sadly that does nothing for the high tier vehicles.

Agreed. I'm listening to the announcement video in the background and I'm hoping there's good news about the high tiers as well. 

The announcer does not know how players will be able to get the high tier vehicles. All evidence points to them being the same as the FV215b and Foch 155. 

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I'm surprised at the incompetence WG displays. It's staggering. Then again I was shouted at here for saying it's common for big companies to be extremely incompetent. You just need bad structure and systems of checks not to work for it to really show. I'm not surprised since WoT's success seems purely accidental and not planned. 

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Gonna be honest, not seeing the problem here beyond cases of "I wanted the 113/T62A/AMX30B/etc but can't get it anymore" for the high tier stuff.

Pruning down low tiers is good. It reduces the odds of a new player accidentally stumbling into a truly horrific tank and then quitting the game because of how bad it is [the only really bad low tiers left are the AMX 38 and AMX 40], and it makes backtracking into a new line less irritating. If I started the Swedish medium line for example, and then I want to go back and do the TD's, I don't have to cut through or waste free XP on a bunch of dumb low tier garbage anymore.

It is kind of weird that some rather iconic tanks are being taken out, but at least for the low tiers WG is still keeping them accessible for all players. I was afraid they were going to be some dumb reward crap that's completely inaccessible for most players, like what the M60 used to be, but no.

Specifically for the AMX 30,

Im willing to bet that the AMX 30 re-incarnates later on as part of a continuous line connecting the Somua S35 at tier 3 all the way to the 30B at tier 10.

WG went all crazy for "line consistency" between tiers 8 and 10; this is why the Badger got introduced, the Soviet medium and heavy lines got all sorts of messed with, and now all the French TD's at those tiers have autoloaders.

Going from the BatChat 12T to the AMX 30 was always super weird and made no sense. Its likely that WG is trying to build a line that bridges the Renault G1R all the way to the AMX 30.

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2 hours ago, Tupinambis said:

Gonna be honest, not seeing the problem here beyond cases of "I wanted the 113/T62A/AMX30B/etc but can't get it anymore" for the high tier stuff.
 

Agree with all of this.

Plus even the high tier removals are a good thing. If you like the tank and actually want to play it, having it as a reward vehicle means you don't need a separate crew. I've held off on buying the 113 partly because it's not good and partly because I didn't want to deal with training a new crew. Yes, crew books exist but that's an extra 2M credits down the drain. The number of Chinese tanks worth playing is low so if I did get bored of the 113, there is nothing else worthwhile to put them in. Now I can just re-use my 5a / 111-1-4 crews.

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31 minutes ago, Ogopogo said:

It gets worse.

The reward tanks come in their top configuration. This about the jumbo for a moment.

The fellow on the announcement stream said the Jumbo would keep its derp gun. 

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Kind of not a fan of this but also its not a bad idea.

 

I disagree with taking especially historical tanks away (like the firefly, hetzer etc as stated earlier) and I also disagree with taking high tiers away. But simplifying the grind isnt nessecarally a bad idea. Also note that they're starting arty/TDs at tier 4/5 and not tier 2, not a completely terrible idea.

 

3 hours ago, dustygator said:

Agree with all of this.

Plus even the high tier removals are a good thing. If you like the tank and actually want to play it, having it as a reward vehicle means you don't need a separate crew. I've held off on buying the 113 partly because it's not good and partly because I didn't want to deal with training a new crew. Yes, crew books exist but that's an extra 2M credits down the drain. The number of Chinese tanks worth playing is low so if I did get bored of the 113, there is nothing else worthwhile to put them in. Now I can just re-use my 5a / 111-1-4 crews.

You know what sucks about you saying the 113 is bad? The fact that its not bad. They buffed it right up to the top of clan wars competitiveness a few years ago, and it hasnt been touched since then, theyve just overbuffed everything else and released new, more powercreeped tanks. 

Thats one major reason I barely play the game anymore now. 

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I don't see why any one would get worked up about this, the game is so fucking stale and dreadful at this point that they can only go up or sideways. I will take any changes just for the mere chance if seeing a horde of whining 20k game T67 clubbers leave the game.

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17 minutes ago, Jesse_the_Scout said:

if seeing a horde of whining 20k game T67 clubbers leave the game.

The low tier ones stay in the game, just not as part of research trees. The clubbers will be unfazed.

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T67 isn't gong away, but I bet they become a lot less popular when all the targets they have to shoot at are now completely bloated with hitpoints for them to try and carve through.

Of course, their own durability will go up too, but they'll lose the ability to take away half of an enemy's hitpoints before they can even duck back into cover.

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They're doing this at the same time they're dumping a massive rework of everything. I think it's entirely possible they're going to nerf all the bullshit tanks in the proccess (T67, Luchs, etc.), but let players keep them. All the AP rounds and HPs are going up, so all they have to do to fuck over the T67 is not increase its stats enough. I'm hoping they don't increase them at all, which would be fucking hilarious. Even if nothing else its ammo limit will become a critical limitation. I suspect most of the reason they're making this change is to stop the low tier abuse problem, but obviously they can't say that's the intention.

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The idea of simplifying the tech tree is nice considering how many low tier you have to skip. Also, is it just me or they just removed those branch swapping tanks.

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Jesus. I just logged into the test server and looked things over. If this is the end result, what a disappointment. No apparent nerfs to anything that needs it, they just scaled everything almost flat. At high tier everything has +20% HPs and +20% to damage. Even the arty nerf just basically boils down to forcing people to shoot gold arty shells in order to keep their current damage output. So costing more credits and removing stun is basically it. They haven't changed the cost of ammo at all, so gold ammo appears proportionately more expensive than ever. They haven't even scaled up how much ammo you can carry past tier 5, so the fucking T67 is fine but something like the Type 64 is stuck with even lower potential damage against the hordes of power creeped tier 8 heavies.

Basically low tier gameplay might improve because the HPs scale up better, but the three tier spread is actually going to be worse than ever because your gold ammo is weaker. Without compensating for it elsewhere (such as by scaling HPs by class) this is going to make heavies the dominant vehicle and make fighting up suck even more. I was optimistic they had come around, but they really are just steaming forward with the shitty original sandbox plan for World of Red E-100s.

EDIT: The more stats I look at the more triggered I get. For a lot of the low tier changes they just moved shit up a tier and gave it some more HPs, maybe +10 view range, blam, this fine. I kid you not they took the Valentine AT which is already bad at tier 3 and just made it a tier 4 with a few more HPs. Same guns, same view range, same everything else. A-20 is now a tier 5 with a few more HPs and +20 view range. Crusader is now a tier 6 light with a few more HPs and maybe +1 RoF. It goes on like this. Amazingly half-assed.

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