Low-tier tech tree pruning and other balance patch discussion

[Tupinambis 173]

11 hours ago, Kuroialty said:

Low tiers on test server play like high tiers now.  Might just be the environment, but I'm tentatively readying myself to turn my back on this game for good.

...is that a problem?

[Snoregasm2 646]

1 hour ago, Tupinambis said:

...is that a problem?

Yeah, isn't that the point of the low tier HP increase? Unless he meant gold spam, which, it's the test server with new gold rounds, so of course that will happen.

I'm not saying WG will do this, but if they actually balaned low tiers correctly so it prepares newer players for higher tier gameplay, that's surely a good thing? Higher tiers have their issues which are well documented, but most people who have more than 5k battles would rather play tier 8+ for a reason.

[Kuroialty 447]

Critical hits are insanely common now.  I'm getting one of my crew knocked out early in every game I get hit and often taking damage to engines, gas, turret, or ammo rack depending on what I play.  Did they boost overall health and damage without making modules or crew any healthier?

[Kuroialty 447]

23 hours ago, Tupinambis said:

...is that a problem?

There's zero finesse to the combat with health pools like this.  Just about every game devolves into big health pools bullying small health pools, big numbers bullying small numbers, and trading alpha damage.  People aren't afraid of moving out of cover because they can't be punished too much for doing so, so they quickly and easily move into positions where fights grind down to hull down and corner poke exchanges.  The few maps that have hills are even more important now as to who wins the hill for the massive positional advantage, but the fights are still a crapshoot on which team commits and which team wins.  Coming back from a deficit is several times harder since leftover health pools may be similar in relative terms, but massively greater in absolute numbers.  It wouldn't be much different from playing higher tiers today at double game speed.  It's a disaster.  Again, it could be the environment, but I think it's got a lot to do with the actual changes.

[Kuroialty 447]

I'm still trying to figure out what the incentive or purpose is for any new player to buy lower tier tanks that have been removed from the list after they've moved up the tiers.  If they still apply to the completion of some medals, there's that aspect, but I don't anticipate new players are coming into to complete tech trees.  One of the appeals of the tank's low price is gone since all their prices have gone ~5x what they currently are for no perceivable income benefit.  The tanks that have been left in the trees, at least as far as I've looked at tier 2, don't seem lacking in strong options, so it's not like you would need to grind down a line to unlock some OP tank to play.  If you like the way low tiers play, you just stay there with the options available.  If you don't, you keep tiering up or go into a different nation.

In terms of tiering up, the process does become moderately streamlined since one line branches off into everything around tier 6 and doesn't require branching off right after tier 1.  I just don't see the reason if you go up to come back down.

[Archaic_One 1,853]

Its been said on here before, but its worth repeating.  The game was at its best when the developers played the game.  Its so obvious listening to the devs talk that not only do they not play the game themselves, but they are taking cues about game meta from outdated sources.  They are trying to fix a game that does not really exist anymore.

The other, bigger problem is that like 1.0, all of these changes are doing nothing to bring players into the game.  They need to be working on making the game fun and inviting to the next generation of players so they can grow the games playerbase.  Instead, they are fixing a leaky faucet while the Titanic is sinking.  This is the only game I have ever seen that not only does not utilize the knowledge and advice of its best players -  it actually seems to actively shun it.

 

[kariverson 180]

On 2/11/2020 at 10:06 AM, Jesse_the_Scout said:

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Jesus. I just logged into the test server and looked things over. If this is the end result, what a disappointment. No apparent nerfs to anything that needs it,

Oh but they nerfed everything... But Heavies and Arties. Heavies now have more HP yet the prem ammo you need to pen them does less damage, not to mention tank HE doesn't do nearly as much dmg as before, so survivability of heavies skyrocketed. Just imagine how much they widened the gap between Heavies and Mediums now. 

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Even the arty nerf just basically boils down to forcing people to shoot gold arty shells in order to keep their current damage output.

You must have not read something right. Arty's damage remain the same with the normal shell that does stun as well. They keep their pen too. The 2nd shell just does more damage, so it's an arty buff and that's the bottom line (cause Stone Cold said so.) 

This is easily the worst thing that has happened in WOT.

[GehakteMolen 2,063]

They did is right with Sandbox, (3 years ago or so), but instead of biting the bullet, and just doing it, they did nothing, let everything get worse, and base on what i read, half arsed it in the worst possible way, GG

Wot had sooooo much potential, even after all the fails, but the single biggest fuck up after arty, gold ammo, they never dared to fix, they changed / screwed over everything else, except for the obvious problem, and now its too late...

Player who quit in the past wont return as paying players, and new players will juts get confused by the clusterfuck that is wot now...

ps: Also strong point of wot was the clean, basic, ``old`` UI / garage. All other games (around 2010) somehow needed complex shit ui, wot look old, clean and good. The mission menus and stuff they added later also fitted nicely. When they updated the UI, they lost me, i used to have a look at the missions, and tried to do them, till that the update 9.15. They added some garage filters, which was nice, but fucked up everything else (i think it was all in the same patch) Every singe im not even botherhing anymore, its clutter, complex, and rage inducting.

Who the fuck: designs suchs shit? Approves suchs shit? has no balls to backtrack / update that shit?

People always cried for Serb, well, when Serb was in charge it was alll a looooooot better...

[Ogopogo 55]

7 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

Wot had sooooo much potential, even after all the fails, but the single biggest fuck up after arty, gold ammo, they never dared to fix, they changed / screwed over everything else, except for the obvious problem, and now its too late...

WoT has always struck me as a game, from later open beta onwards, that wargamming didn't quite know how they ended up so successful with, and got decision paralysis from fearing of hurting their cash cow.

[Kuroialty 447]

After several days sifting through all the tanks I thought would be the strongest or most engaging, I have failed to find a single redeeming quality about the way the game plays compared to the live server.  The I-Go was the closest I got to anything fun or seemingly successful, which I suspect is because its DPM is still the greatest and its low shell speed and high arcs allow it to win hull down fights, but it's still a far cry from satisfying.

[tajj7 560]

I'm not really getting all the fuss. 

Overall the direction of the changes is good, the ideas are good, the execution needs some finesse but its WG.

1. Premium ammo gets a disadvantage, so becomes more balanced. I mean they did it WG's special way by making all HP pools and all standard ammo go up, but whatever the impact is the same, you actually trade something for higher pen.

2. The additional lower tier HP buff makes a lot of sense, it never tallied properly to the DPMs and Alpha on those tiers, you have tier 6 mediums with over 2k base DPM, but only 750 health, you get the tier 10, 4 tiers up and top level medium DPM has only gone up 50% but HP pools have gone up like over 200% plus. 

3. These changes are a minor nerf to arty, because their standard shells are keeping the same damage as they have now, but everything they shoot has more HP, so each shot is less effective and they will need more shots to kill the same tank than they do now on live. If they want to compensate for that lack of damage, they have to use premium ammo which comes without stun, so is not only more expensive, for literally the same effective damage they are doing on live now, they lose the stun option which helps with extra XP and credits, so makes that premium round even more costly.  You are basically talking about an M53/M55 paying 8k credits for half the share of XP and credits of like 400-500 damage, with no stun, every 40s or so. So can't see premium rounds being used by most players, which means more often that not the arty shooting at you will take a little less % of your HP than they do on live now.

It's also a double nerf for the OP mid tier arties, because all the tier 5 and 6 tanks they shoot at, are getting a double HP buff, but their standard round is still doing the same damage it is now. So an M44, that annoying OP sh*t that ruins mid tier games, is still doing 550 damage on sandbox, but like tier 6 mediums have over 1K hit points, so it'll be less effective.

4. They are removing idiot proof HE spam, particularly from big calibres and making HE more about aiming than spamming in the general direction of the strongest armour and then the HE mechanics searching for the weakest armour, so if you hit massively thick armour, you will do far less damage. Which is good, it stops mindless HE spam into armour.

Plus it reduces the one shots, and cripples stupid alpha tanks like the 183 and FV4005. 

5. The tech tree reshuffle I kind of get and I'm kind of neutral on. Couldn't really give a care about lower tiers, but making it more simple to grind through makes sense for newer players and those tanks will still be accessible. Higher tanks going I am not sure it is needed but seeing as I have almost all of them anyway, for me it just gives me a reward tank and frees up some crews. I'd probably have a 113 in my garage for example if I didn't need a completely separate crew for it.

My main areas for concern about this are -

• It's obviously a buff to over armoured heavies, many of which are plain old OP at the moment and others will become OP I think with these changes and I don't trust WG to rebalance these tanks properly or in a timely fashion, so expect months of Maus's. 279es, 430Us, T95s etc. flooding more of the queues, performing even better because they take longer to take down, before WG actually gets enough 'data' to re-balance them, which of course won't include putting actual reliable weakspots into them.

• The HE re-balance, whilst I like it overall, completely destroys HESH. Whilst I don't really care about the 183s, for other tanks high pen HE is about trading pen for a bit more damage and is important for tanks like the Cent 7/1, HWK-30, WVs etc. and WG don't give you this option, high pen HESH does more damage than normal HE, that is it, but a penning shot from your standard round is always going to do more damage. Which makes HESH rather pointless and effectively nerfs many of those tanks, they need to come up with a better option IMO or those tanks will need some big buffs, and some of those are premiums where the high pen HE is a big selling point (M41 GF, HWK-30, EBR 75, and Senlac for example), so that seems a hard nerf to those premiums.

 

• Why couldn't arty HE get the same treatment and the KV-2 being exempt is rather silly. 

[Kymrel 185]

I like many of the points raised, and would add one more. The effects on lower tier tanks in a +2 MM environment will be horrific. Now you can't pen with normal ammo and need to load the gold to pen. This won't change, but after this package of shit is implemented you'll do less damage (or, rather, the tanks have more HP, the net effect is the same), allowing armored tanks of a higher tier to bully even better.

Unless they go to a +1/-1 MM this change will be utterly terrible for the game. Even if they do, it still might be. People will gravitate towards armor and tanks with high standard pen. So more super-heavies and TDs. And arty because fuck this game. Staples like the T-54 and other meds/lights that need gold to be competitive are humped and can go fuck themselves. Really well thought out, Wargaming...

What they need to do is to not go live with the broad strokes rebalance they are trying to do now and instead immediately deal with the obvious problems that creates before releasing this new version of the game. Because that's what this is. Buff HP of some tanks more than others. Introduce actual weak spots on tanks that really, really need them and make some alleged weak spots (type 5 cupola, Defender lower front plate etc) real weak spots by lowering the armor value. Buff pen on some tanks, reduce or increase ammo cost, amount of ammo carried etc.

They don't need much testing to do many of those changes. Just common sense and game knowledge. They would then need to tweak them once it's live, doing a lot of little fixes to fine tune the game. And this should be done quickly and efficiently, without any regard for if tanks are premium tanks or not. Call it 2.0 and people can't really complain. If they do, give them the tanks as they were in 1.X with the old HP and standard alpha and tell them to go fuck themselves.

But of course Wargaming won't do any of that because they are incompetent shits who don't play their own game. Instead they'll go live with their great rebalance, screw the game in a major way and then spend two years gathering data and then finally fix something, long after the game ceases to be relevant.

[hazzgar 730]

On 2/15/2020 at 4:43 AM, Archaic_One said:

Its been said on here before, but its worth repeating.  The game was at its best when the developers played the game.  Its so obvious listening to the devs talk that not only do they not play the game themselves, but they are taking cues about game meta from outdated sources.  They are trying to fix a game that does not really exist anymore.

The other, bigger problem is that like 1.0, all of these changes are doing nothing to bring players into the game.  They need to be working on making the game fun and inviting to the next generation of players so they can grow the games playerbase.  Instead, they are fixing a leaky faucet while the Titanic is sinking.  This is the only game I have ever seen that not only does not utilize the knowledge and advice of its best players -  it actually seems to actively shun it.

 

Imho not playing the game isn't everything. Serb was good at understanding game data. The guys currently claim that tanks that overperform in all data points don't overperform and the say the same for underperformers. 

 

They just are very, very incompetent. I assume the atmosphere in the office shifted when the game started bleeding players and now they are very reactive and they try to predict what the players want or listen to the largest blob of morons they hear. I've known companies like that and it's clear that the reactive mindset here is an even bigger problem than playing or not playing the game

[Ham_ 434]

#WeWantSerB

[echo9835 166]

46 minutes ago, Ham_ said:

#WeWantSerB

SerB lives on the moon now and cannot return to earth

[Tupinambis 173]

On 2/16/2020 at 12:11 PM, Kuroialty said:

After several days sifting through all the tanks I thought would be the strongest or most engaging, I have failed to find a single redeeming quality about the way the game plays compared to the live server.  The I-Go was the closest I got to anything fun or seemingly successful, which I suspect is because its DPM is still the greatest and its low shell speed and high arcs allow it to win hull down fights, but it's still a far cry from satisfying.

You don't think that actually rewarding players for knowing when to, and not to use different ammo types isn't a redeeming quality? Is this somehow a downgrade compared to the current "Fire premium APCR and never shoot anything else because there's literally no reason to" meta?

On 2/17/2020 at 7:50 AM, Kymrel said:

I like many of the points raised, and would add one more. The effects on lower tier tanks in a +2 MM environment will be horrific. Now you can't pen with normal ammo and need to load the gold to pen. This won't change, but after this package of shit is implemented you'll do less damage (or, rather, the tanks have more HP, the net effect is the same), allowing armored tanks of a higher tier to bully even better.

Unless they go to a +1/-1 MM this change will be utterly terrible for the game. Even if they do, it still might be. People will gravitate towards armor and tanks with high standard pen. So more super-heavies and TDs. And arty because fuck this game. Staples like the T-54 and other meds/lights that need gold to be competitive are humped and can go fuck themselves. Really well thought out, Wargaming...

What they need to do is to not go live with the broad strokes rebalance they are trying to do now and instead immediately deal with the obvious problems that creates before releasing this new version of the game. Because that's what this is. Buff HP of some tanks more than others. Introduce actual weak spots on tanks that really, really need them and make some alleged weak spots (type 5 cupola, Defender lower front plate etc) real weak spots by lowering the armor value. Buff pen on some tanks, reduce or increase ammo cost, amount of ammo carried etc.

They don't need much testing to do many of those changes. Just common sense and game knowledge. They would then need to tweak them once it's live, doing a lot of little fixes to fine tune the game. And this should be done quickly and efficiently, without any regard for if tanks are premium tanks or not. Call it 2.0 and people can't really complain. If they do, give them the tanks as they were in 1.X with the old HP and standard alpha and tell them to go fuck themselves.

But of course Wargaming won't do any of that because they are incompetent shits who don't play their own game. Instead they'll go live with their great rebalance, screw the game in a major way and then spend two years gathering data and then finally fix something, long after the game ceases to be relevant.

Releasing foxes to take care of your feral rabbit problem. You're not wrong, but I just can't get behind the "solve a problem with a stupider problem" logic.

Being bottom tier sucks, that shouldn't justify keeping gold ammo as a terrible game mechanic. These are separate problems that need to be addressed separately. Will the gold ammo nerf also result in things like the Object 279e overperforming even more? Yeah probably, but WG should nerf that thing anyway; that still doesn't justify leaving gold ammo as is. Gold ammo itself lead directly to most of these other problems; it was the direct cause of the closed maps with minimal flanking opportunities and tanks with idiotic armor schemes and no functional weakspots, which in turn are the main reason why bottom tier MM is so miserable.

Also its absolutely a good thing that standard ammo penetration becomes a meaningful game balance statistic again. Anyone here remember when the Panther and the AMX AC Mle 1946 were, like, actually considered good? Some tanks are specifically balanced around high standard pen and give up quite a bit to have it. Other tanks are specifically balanced around low standard pen and, likewise, get a lot in compensation for it.

[Jesse_the_Scout 2,097]

The only thing that makes any sense to me is if they're planning one more sweeping overhaul which will be a huge number of buffs and nerfs, and they have to wait to do it after the gold ammo resolution is implemented. They've said as much, but they say a lot of shit. So either there's an entire next phase coming and all this angst is for nothing, or this big rebuild is a joke.

[Kymrel 185]

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It is already clear that the new paradigm of shells and the reworked HP pool of vehicles, together with the mechanics of HE shells and SPG rebalance, require further improvements and are not ready for release in their current shape.

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Several solutions implemented on the Sandbox server were successful, but some of them still need to be adjusted. As a result:

We will proceed with the HP increase for low-tier vehicles, the rework of the Tech Tree, and the implementation of Collectors' Vehicles, at which point we will share more details in the near future.

Other changes, including the shell type rebalance, HE mechanics, and SPGs rework require a thorough review, and will not be released anytime soon.

Source: https://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/general-news/sandbox-february-results/

[Kuroialty 447]

12 hours ago, Tupinambis said:

You don't think that actually rewarding players for knowing when to, and not to use different ammo types isn't a redeeming quality? Is this somehow a downgrade compared to the current "Fire premium APCR and never shoot anything else because there's literally no reason to" meta?

That sounds like a great idea.  What makes you think these changes accomplish any of that in the lower tiers?

[Tarski 341]

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Player concerns were mainly related to the vehicles moved from the Tech Tree to the Collectors' Vehicles section of the in-game Store — leading to the assumption they would disappear from the game. We assure you that’s not going to happen.

If this change is implemented into the game, these vehicles, including Tiers VI–X, will be available for purchase with Credits. Players can buy them any time after the potential update goes live thereby eliminating the rush to research these vehicles.

Alas, I spent many of my saved credits getting the T-62A and AMX 30B prematurely after the announcement stream implied they'd get reward vehicle status. I would have spent my credits differently had I known. Ah well, at least they heard some of our criticism. 

[Snoregasm2 646]

19 hours ago, Kymrel said:

Source: https://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/general-news/sandbox-february-results/

Wow, they actually listened? So all they're doing is buffing low tier HP and tech tree changes?

I'd count that as a win, given the potential they had for pushing ahead with ill-conceived solutions to complex problems.

[Wanderjar 298]

yeah they get this hankering for a systemic change every few years it seems since Rubicon

[Diriz0n 1,000,043]

On 2/19/2020 at 12:22 AM, Tupinambis said:

Anyone here remember when the Panther and the AMX AC Mle 1946 were, like, actually considered good? Some tanks are specifically balanced around high standard pen and give up quite a bit to have it. Other tanks are specifically balanced around low standard pen and, likewise, get a lot in compensation for it.

Panther has received very good buffs. It stole the side skirt spaced armour off panther ll (which lost them....)  and gained DPM. Church GC sucks no matter the buff, but gained DPM, alpha, pen with the  revolutionary 32pdr changes. 25TP, S35CA, and Pz lV c are good vehicles with their high pen, not really crippled in DPM. Matilda, T-28, T-28 F3O  -  again vehicles with high pen yet nice tanks in their tier.  So that leaves us with French stinkers like AMX12T, AC46. Tanks with high penetration yes, but not much else. AMX CDC was released at a time when 212mm med tank pen was great for tier 8, now it is just normal. And CDC hasn't changed at all. How did a tank like CDC not receive a thorough look through, or since when is a ''''buff'''' like panther 88 losing 2OOkg weight and gaining +5mm side armour sufficient. wWho decides this nonsense? And tanks like STA2, Mutz, IS6, WZ111, 112, Type 59, T-34-3, FCM5O, Jag Tiger 88 all get a tonne more? Mind boggling. 

[hazzgar 730]

On 2/21/2020 at 4:33 AM, Diriz0n said:

Panther has received very good buffs.

So that leaves us with French stinkers like AMX12T, 

I thought you could not outdo your silly previous comments but this is almost as bad as when you compared yourself to garbad. Amx 12t being a stinker... Dude are you mixing bleach, adderall and acid. It clearly doesn't work for you

[Diriz0n 1,000,043]

In the handful of games it took me to research AMX1375, I averaged 1.2K dmg in AMX12T.  I'd say decent performance.

It doesn't matter how well or badly one may perform in a tank. AMX12T clearly sucks, and trades everything it can possibly have in a soul, for merely camo, penetration, and clip damage. Less view range than peers (1O-2Om)  woefully terrible DPM  (like really, shitty Even 9O DPM)  terrible gun depression, terrible crew orientation, terrible track traverse compared to other light tanks.....even some meds making it appear like a boat. 

AMX12T sucks. Stop sniffing glue.