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I think this could be one of the more stupid blunders WG has, or is set to go forward with.  HE pen, even HESH is nerfed for a whole range of things, the overwhelming majority, but remains potent for KV2? and that warhammer KV2R? Really?  What has changed? All the people crying, don't take my KV2 away, or quickybaby releasing that sob story, and WG backs it's tracks? Wth?  what about all the people that have fun in their M4, PZlV, Hetzer? Why do they have to have their HE taken away? or is it just they wish to protect the KV2R prem purchase, with it's potent and funny high HE pen.  Well.....the problem with that, what about people who spent their money on M41GF? Senlac? HK30? Mutz? Kanone? 50TP? Well seems like those are all losing their HE pen, but not KV2R?  Da, comrade.  Russian bias continues to be a problem in this game, a simple problem to fix, but nevertheless one never really addressed for this games running entirety. It is getting old now, real old. 

on a simpler note:  Arty, one of the games most frustrating occurrences of unfair HE penetrations, remains.  KV2(s) a tank that drags up many poor tier 4s, a huge HE problem ever since moved from tier 5, where it was even a larger HE problem then, will remain rampant. Congrats.

FV4K5 will have its due HE and HESH rework balance, which is nice for the game, but I wonder if they re-buff the actual vehicle parameters back. It's ammo needed the balancing, not the physical vehicle itself. Probably not. Type  4 and 5, and even  oho,  oi  --  just lol.  Not Russian. They can go cry in a corner. 

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well since the kv2R was a prem tank they cant nerf its performance or they would have to give refunds and I'm sure games workshop would have something to say about that too since it's their IP. 
might as well do the same to the kv2 because its just easier that way lol

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Kind of ambivalent on this one.  The KV-2 really, let’s be honest here, has nothing else going for it. It’s huge, slow, the armor kinda sucks for its tier, etc. if the HE shells sucked then the tank would be borderline unplayable unless WG decided to give it like weirdly good ROF, gun handling and accuracy.

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11 hours ago, Wanderjar said:

well since the kv2R was a prem tank they cant nerf its performance or they would have to give refunds and I'm sure games workshop would have something to say about that too since it's their IP. 
might as well do the same to the kv2 because its just easier that way lol

I understand. But what about Senlac?  HK30?  Kanone?  M41GF.  EBR75? Mutz?  People paid for those as well. They all stand to lose their HE effectiveness

Tupin,   KV2 has more DPM than ARL44 (with the broken 330 APCR too)  oi   with the 105mm,  and T150 with 107.  The gun depression isn't bad.  As far as tier 6 shitters go,  KV2 isn't the worst out there

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Wanderjar said:

well since the kv2R was a prem tank they cant nerf its performance or they would have to give refunds and I'm sure games workshop would have something to say about that too since it's their IP. 
might as well do the same to the kv2 because its just easier that way lol

I bought the KV-2 R a week before the announced "buffs" and was pretty pissed about the HE changes. I am still pissed about the HE changes, but hey KV-2 is still stronk tenk. Also @Diriz0n I am pretty sure WG knows that the HE changes are going to piss a lot of people off. I think that the HE changes are someone's pet project and they have professional pride caught up in it. They don't want to admit its bad but someone else is trying to do some damage control. If the KV-2 was nerfed, and lets be real the HE changes are a nerf, the RU server would lose their minds. 

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3 hours ago, echo9835 said:

I bought the KV-2 R a week before the announced "buffs" and was pretty pissed about the HE changes. I am still pissed about the HE changes, but hey KV-2 is still stronk tenk. Also @Diriz0n I am pretty sure WG knows that the HE changes are going to piss a lot of people off. I think that the HE changes are someone's pet project and they have professional pride caught up in it. They don't want to admit its bad but someone else is trying to do some damage control. If the KV-2 was nerfed, and lets be real the HE changes are a nerf, the RU server would lose their minds. 

HE is supposed to be heavily nerfed.   It is either A)  a tool to use when you can penetrate thin light armour  (which requires aimingB)  a tool to use to prevent bullying, applying very little, insignificant dmg to +2 high tiered foes, or extremely entrenched/hulldown enemies   or C)  to reset cap, with high guarantee to at least apply little, again insignificant damage.

What is pissing off people now is, HE either does too much damage when used in a spam tactic, to counter stuff like side scrape or hulldown.   or it causes too much module dmg even with no penetration, even with very little dmg done.  or it causes no damage at all, when it is supposed to work, like cap reset or a tank with 22 HP left, but the target still survives the hit.  or a batchat arty, trying to help the team against superheavy enemies, to only deal 25 dmg hits. or worse, zero. Zilch. 

 

 

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What should worry you more is that Hesh shells now can't penetrate. I mean how do they think they can balance that?  

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45 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

What should worry you more is that Hesh shells now can't penetrate. I mean how do they think they can balance that?  

That is of particular interest. I am not sure what they plan to do. All HESH is, is high pen HE, at least within the game. Take away the high pen.....and what is HESH? HE.  

-Give HESH a small stun timer?

-Allow HESH to retain the inner module damage critical hits, that they are taking away from HE? 

-Decrease HESH burst radius, but increase its shell damage compared to HE?

-Give HESH a higher inherit HE formula modifier on non penetrations?  (IE   .6 instead of .5

 

Who knows at this point.  But from the bland statements we have got over the past week, HESH looks real useless without any explanation

 

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KV-2 gets to derp, but not T49? Fuck that...

Also: If they give all HE 0 pen, why not remove the 50% non-pen modifier and just reduce shell damage by 50% instead? 

 

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11 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

I understand. But what about Senlac?  HK30?  Kanone?  M41GF.  EBR75? Mutz?  People paid for those as well. They all stand to lose their HE effectiveness

Tupin,   KV2 has more DPM than ARL44 (with the broken 330 APCR too)  oi   with the 105mm,  and T150 with 107.  The gun depression isn't bad.  As far as tier 6 shitters go,  KV2 isn't the worst out there

You've obviously never had to deal with Games Workshop then lol. 

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1 hour ago, Diriz0n said:

That is of particular interest. I am not sure what they plan to do. All HESH is, is high pen HE, at least within the game. Take away the high pen.....and what is HESH? HE.  

-Give HESH a small stun timer?

-Allow HESH to retain the inner module damage critical hits, that they are taking away from HE? 

-Decrease HESH burst radius, but increase its shell damage compared to HE?

-Give HESH a higher inherit HE formula modifier on non penetrations?  (IE   .6 instead of .5

 

Who knows at this point.  But from the bland statements we have got over the past week, HESH looks real useless without any explanation

 

1. Stun Timer would be useless since the low caliber = low stun

2. Hesh on non FV4005 does no damage. I'm speaking on Hesh like Centurion, Conway and other UK tds. The module damage here is useless

3. Burst radius on Hesh is useless anyway so not really a change

4. That would kinda help but it's opposite to the direction they are going with since they want to lower the effectiveness with HE. 

 

Imho they walk this back and kill free hesh but keep prem hesh on the brits.

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1 hour ago, Wanderjar said:

Non-prem HE on the brits is just HE. the Prem HE is HESH designated. 

The 100-120mm HE is He? 

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the 'cheap" HE is just HE. the Expensive HE is HESH if that helps? 

1 hour ago, hazzgar said:

The 100-120mm HE is He? 

 

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when medium tanks first came 0ut with tier 10 tanks they were given 105mm pen HEP r0unds. They were rem0ved in testing iterati0ns, 0nly FV4202 and 121B kept them. Since then, 0nly pr0gett0 has been added  -  I c0nsider these HESH n0t HE.  But simply put, HESH equals HE, they behave the same may. Actually, m0st HESH examples have 0ne negative effective, which is als0 seen in high pen HE n0t necessarily named as HESH -- and that is vel0city dr0p. M41GF, HK3O, RU251, Excalibur, Pr0gett0, Etc. N0t always the case, but very c0mm0n. Tanks like FV421, C0nquer0r, Badger, 0bj 263 d0n't have their higher pen HE shells really dr0p in vel0city.

 

Just g0ing back 0n the ideas:

Since tanks c0mm0nly hit their targets as 0pp0sed t0 artillery which uses fragmentati0n, the stun timer can be m0re f0cused. Say starting at min-b0re size like 105mm, 2-3 sec0nd stun c0uld be a thing? 120mm c0uld be 3-4 sec0nds? That c0uld mean all the difference in a firefight. 

What was the last iterati0n 0f damage f0r FV4K5? S0mething like 480? Well if HE linearly falls int0 place, have FV with its n0rmal HE r0und, d0 that 480 while the HESH is buffed t0 515? I d0 n0t kn0w what the nerfed HE dmg f0r Type 4/5 will be, let us say 360, have the HE d0 that while the HESH gets bumped up t0 410? 

Y0u are right, burst radius sucks. HESH dynamics d0n't increase burst radius anyway, by principle. 

Giving HESH .6 seems like a g00d idea, and while they are at t0 widen the gap decrease HE m0difer t0 .4

 

 

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13 hours ago, Diriz0n said:

when medium tanks first came 0ut with tier 10 tanks they were given 105mm pen HEP r0unds. They were rem0ved in testing iterati0ns, 0nly FV4202 and 121B kept them. Since then, 0nly pr0gett0 has been added  -  I c0nsider these HESH n0t HE.  But simply put, HESH equals HE, they behave the same may. Actually, m0st HESH examples have 0ne negative effective, which is als0 seen in high pen HE n0t necessarily named as HESH -- and that is vel0city dr0p. M41GF, HK3O, RU251, Excalibur, Pr0gett0, Etc. N0t always the case, but very c0mm0n. Tanks like FV421, C0nquer0r, Badger, 0bj 263 d0n't have their higher pen HE shells really dr0p in vel0city.

 

Just g0ing back 0n the ideas:

Since tanks c0mm0nly hit their targets as 0pp0sed t0 artillery which uses fragmentati0n, the stun timer can be m0re f0cused. Say starting at min-b0re size like 105mm, 2-3 sec0nd stun c0uld be a thing? 120mm c0uld be 3-4 sec0nds? That c0uld mean all the difference in a firefight. 

What was the last iterati0n 0f damage f0r FV4K5? S0mething like 480? Well if HE linearly falls int0 place, have FV with its n0rmal HE r0und, d0 that 480 while the HESH is buffed t0 515? I d0 n0t kn0w what the nerfed HE dmg f0r Type 4/5 will be, let us say 360, have the HE d0 that while the HESH gets bumped up t0 410? 

Y0u are right, burst radius sucks. HESH dynamics d0n't increase burst radius anyway, by principle. 

Giving HESH .6 seems like a g00d idea, and while they are at t0 widen the gap decrease HE m0difer t0 .4

 

 

Those ideas make no sense. 2-3s is in 99% of the cases not fast enough for others to shoot that tank and the slower reload will mean nothing when you shoot for less alpha than AP because you are not penning.

Also FV easily shoots for 600-700.

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N0w it hits f0r that damage.

N0t later 0n, if sandb0x g0es thr0ugh. What is the base HE dmg currently used in test FV 183? I read it was 480 0r 580, s0mething like that. Which means it has ab0ut the p0wer 0f what 50TP can currently d0, firing just HE, with0ut any pen 0r the rate 0f fire

WG has t0 c00k up s0me buffs for HESH, the shell type will n0 l0nger exist if sandb0x testing went live because it is simply the same as HE then

 

 

 

 

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On 2/11/2020 at 11:34 PM, Diriz0n said:

when medium tanks first came 0ut with tier 10 tanks they were given 105mm pen HEP r0unds. They were rem0ved in testing iterati0ns, 0nly FV4202 and 121B kept them. Since then, 0nly pr0gett0 has been added  -  I c0nsider these HESH n0t HE.  But simply put, HESH equals HE, they behave the same may. Actually, m0st HESH examples have 0ne negative effective, which is als0 seen in high pen HE n0t necessarily named as HESH -- and that is vel0city dr0p. M41GF, HK3O, RU251, Excalibur, Pr0gett0, Etc. N0t always the case, but very c0mm0n. Tanks like FV421, C0nquer0r, Badger, 0bj 263 d0n't have their higher pen HE shells really dr0p in vel0city.

 

 

 

 

 

Just g0ing back 0n the ideas:

 

 

Since tanks c0mm0nly hit their targets as 0pp0sed t0 artillery which uses fragmentati0n, the stun timer can be m0re f0cused. Say starting at min-b0re size like 105mm, 2-3 sec0nd stun c0uld be a thing? 120mm c0uld be 3-4 sec0nds? That c0uld mean all the difference in a firefight. 

 

 

What was the last iterati0n 0f damage f0r FV4K5? S0mething like 480? Well if HE linearly falls int0 place, have FV with its n0rmal HE r0und, d0 that 480 while the HESH is buffed t0 515? I d0 n0t kn0w what the nerfed HE dmg f0r Type 4/5 will be, let us say 360, have the HE d0 that while the HESH gets bumped up t0 410? 

 

 

Y0u are right, burst radius sucks. HESH dynamics d0n't increase burst radius anyway, by principle. 

 

 

Giving HESH .6 seems like a g00d idea, and while they are at t0 widen the gap decrease HE m0difer t0 .4

 

 

 

 

Normally I only read your posts after they've been edited and therefore don't really notice your idiosyncrasies, but fuck me that post gave me ebola.

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2 hours ago, Snoregasm2 said:

Normally I only read your posts after they've been edited and therefore don't really notice your idiosyncrasies, but fuck me that post gave me ebola.

hes doing it harder just to trigger @Haswell .I find it funny as hell honestly. 

hey @Diriz0n that post is all o>0 and none of 0>o for the numbers. might want to change that friend

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When the HE changes were first announced, I said to myself that a test of whether or not they could make it work would be KV-2 and its state under the new mechanics. If it became a useless POS, or if it became game-breaking, or if they had to change it so drastically that it completely lost its previous role, then clearly the new mechanics just couldn't be workable. I wasn't expecting option 4- that they make it an exception to the rework to avoid all of the above. But that in itself speaks volumes.

The rework concept had one merit- that it was taking all of these useless HE shells on small caliber guns that no one used for anything at all and finally gave them a purpose in life (at least in theory). But in practice, the new reworked HE still wasn't particularly good at tracking, cap resets, chip damage, or anything else. I just don't get what WG was trying to accomplish. The only theory that seems to make any sense was that they were removing pen so that low tiers with their fancy new HP buffs don't get raped by HE penetrations.

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