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kolni

Tier 10 Struggles (response to Snoregasm)

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On 2/26/2020 at 9:00 PM, Snoregasm2 said:

How to deal with the current tier 10 MM (4 or 5 OP tanks (430U, 907, Chief, 277, Ebola), 3 or 4 high alpha TDs (4005, 183, 268v4) and 2 or 3 arty. And it's all tier 10, no 9s or 8s.

I honestly can't stand it right now, and I think the meta is just camp hard and be patient, which I struggle to do coming from playing enjoyable games at tiers 8 and 9. 

Is the meta completely different at tier 10? How do you play it postively/aggressively? Or can't you?

Not sure how you will write about this as there are so many different situations, but it could be in the mindset/decision making/tryhard category.

As of now, every viable tier 10 tank either has some sort of gimmick to leverage or just an overtuned kit in general. The gimmicky ones usually have flaws to play around when facing them, but the ones with overtuned kits tend to simply roll you over as a lower tier, and you rarely get to pressure an advantage in full tier 10 games as the terms seems are generally unbalanced and hard to estimate. Hull down snipefights is one of the most common aspects of the game and it is absolutely terrible gameplay, just an example but you get the point.

 

Some examples of the first would be:

  • Autoloaders
  • High alpha guns
  • Super high mobility vehicles

These are fairly simple to play around because you know what they are going to do every game. Niche vehicles tend to go into set plays per map much more often than not and as such they get much easier to predict and counter. EBR’s really suck but I’m simply going to flat out tell you that if you can’t hit them reliably, your aim is bad. Their wheels are complete BS game balance wise but at this point you should be able to adjust to it. It’s part of the game now so the thing you can do instead of whining (it is valitaded, I know) you should be focusing on what you can improve, in the EBR case that would simply be aiming. It’s a terrible introduction to the game but don’t let that stagnate your progress. 

 

On the other hand we have tanks like Chieftain, 907, 430U and such that are just statistically overpowered vehicles in most metrics. They are never easy to fight and you’re going to have to learn that the hard way. Even the dumbest monkey in a Chieftain has a real chance to win duels against considerably better players because of his tank selection. Which leads me to the topic at hand: Tank selection is everything in tier 10. Playing off-meta means you directly disadvantage yourself against everyone playing meta before you even click battle. If you want to learn how tier 10 works in its current state you need to spend time with it, and you generally want to be in control and figure out what works and what doesn’t. How do you do that? Pick strong vehicles. You want to develop that decision making ability but you won’t get to make many decisions when you constantly have to let the enemy make its move because you have a worse tank. 


Since the full tier 10 MM is by far the most common, this gets more important. You don’t have anything to free farm to inflate your DPG, you have to work for it. This means no auto-piloting whatsoever because there are too many guns that have big enough impact to ruin your game entirely of one mistake. Aim for non-losing gameplay rather than winning. I don’t find the meta particularly different, just the tank balance being off. I generally try to avoid the stuff I don’t want to fight until I have to, even if that means giving up where I initially wanted to go during the countdown. If you care about performance in games then tank selection is going to have to be a part of it. 

I find the meta to be increasingly faster and faster, compared to 4-5 years ago where playing full games at 500 meters was a legitimate viable strategy for most mediums. In that sense, yes, there’s more aggression today than before because people are fighting not only against their enemies but teammates for performance. This means people are going to cut corners and find ways to do this more efficiently, which leads to higher tempo gameplay. 

When do you play aggressively? When you have all the information needed to make that play. How likely is it that this play is going to work? Estimate it, try it, re-estimate the value of the play in said situation. 

I am mostly a passive player, so my play is almost exclusively reactive. I deploy to positions I know well, damage to farm and most importantly have a fall back option. If I’m wrong I don’t want my game to end so I never purposefully do plays that are questionable but “would be good if they paid off”. That type of “what if” thinking needs to work the other way too. What if this goes wrong? What should I do? Have an exit strategy ready so your game doesn’t end because of a misread earlier on. 

I’d say the meta is fairly different too, arty being the main difference as there’s basically always 3 of them. Not much you can do about that sadly, once an arty has decided that he’s going to kill you there’s basically nothing you can do to prevent him from singling you out. The advice I have there is to go dark just before arty reloads so that he just might switch to another target. 

It’s a harder game than any other tiers for sure, but you also learn the most from it. If I go back to tier 9 again I’m fairly sure I’d just roll over everybody because I’m almost able to do that in tier 10 too. Tier 9 doesn’t have so many gimmick tanks to be constantly be aware of, and has less variables which makes it an easier tier to play. This is the place you want to be at, comfort means a lot and you should be playing where you are performing the best, perfecting your gameplay in a more comfortable setting makes it easier to take those with you and apply them to more nuanced concepts and situations. Keep doing what works, try and up the difficulty every now and then and see if your skill set holds up. If it does, great; if not then you can just go back and practice more. 

The meta itself of tier 10 isn’t very different, people still play the same positions and the game flow works the same, just at higher stakes. If it gets too complicated you simply have to accept that you’re not quite there yet. Self-criticism is the biggest part of improvement and the more you do it the higher chances are you’ll end up a better player afterwards. Blaming external factors doesn’t help you. Arty sucks, EBRs suck, unbalanced maps etc etc. You can’t do anything to change those, so focus on playing around them. What can I do to simplify these problems for myself? 

For pure aggressive play I’d recommend starting out small. High probability actions that still are dictating actions. Try to control the engagements, think out ways to achieve whatever it is you actually want to do, before you do them. An enemy tank needs to die that’s hard to kill? Find out ways to do it safely, and if you can’t figure one out then you have the options of gambling or thinking of something else. Take the latter option. You can still control areas without putting stakes into it. Don’t know how? Try something. I will always recommend safer play when stakes are high, but when you really are at a loss it’s not like you’re going to end up with a great idea anyway, so try any idea. Sometimes they work out, great. You didn’t learn shit but at least you saved a game that should have been bad. 

 

I also recommend studying the minimap a lot, especially at decisive points of action. See a push happening? Then you want to know how it develops from there, is it common? Can you use this experience for something useful, like assuming it normally happens (after it has happened enough times). This lets you skip steps both in decision making and focus, letting you be more concerned with what’s happening on your screen rather than the map once you understand it. You need to understand the map before you can start making aggressive plays reliably, because most players react the same way to the same things. Knowing that, you know what said aggressively play will result in, how the enemy will react and now you can build upon that knowledge to think even further ahead of that aggressive play. More foresight leads to much more stable gameplay, so the biggest piece of advice to your questions (even though I didn’t really answer any of them in concrete terms) is that you should understand other players better. All the 48-52% players are bunched together anyway, they don’t try to get into other players’ heads at all and react exclusively to what they see happening on their screen and not the minimap. No foresight whatsoever, meaning you can abuse the living shit out of it and simply win over them by playing big picture. Similar to GMs beating mathematically perfect playing computers in chess. Or the macro concept in DoTA/League. It’s a super advanced concept that doesn’t really apply until you are comfortable enough mechanically to beat anyone you come across. You want to be at that point mechanically, because mechanics don’t require thinking once you are comfortable enough with your game knowledge to keep your head in big picture, all the time. You shouldn’t be considering things like “Where should I aim to pen this tank?” or “How much do I need to lead my shell?”; those things should be etched in your skin and happen automatically, because then you can start playing the map which is what tier 10 is all about. You don’t have any substantial  mechanical advantages in tier 10, so your theoretical advantages are what you’re going to want to leverage. A good place to start would be staying at least 1 step ahead of what you’re currently doing, while simultaneously having a fallback if it didn’t work out. Try sticking to that rule at every point of the game, and if you find yourself drifting away from it, you failed. Try again. Once that becomes routine you can add more variables into the mix, like managing HP in ways to prevent pub monkeys yoloing you from actually succeeding, and the more questionable parts of what in reality should be possible know and not. The point is that if you are unaware of something you can’t prepare against it, meaning you have stopped being in control of your gameplay. Try and stop letting that happen and you will find yourself having much more stable games. 

 

This is all in very broad terms, but concepts like this are hard to verbalize unless you make them super specific which usually only applies to the specific situations and little to actually draw from.

 

I don’t really feel that I properly answered your questions, more guiding you in the right direction of becoming comfortable with how tier 10 works. The hard truth is that there’s no easy fix to somehow getting better, it’s a grind that takes time and constantly humbling yourself enough to accept that even if the result of something going bad wasn’t directly your fault, you can’t dwell on that since it doesn’t improve you as a player. It happened, so it was a bad decision. Could you have known that? Try and figure those things out and start playing the game ahead of time. A good rule of thumb that has been working for me is always staying 30 seconds ahead of the map and checking if my assumptions are right, and why they were/weren’t. You need to get into the heads of other players and pull mind-gamey shit to be the protagonist player of every game, which is what everyone wants. When you are in control you can do whatever you want, but at a loss of what to do, take the backseat and let the game develop more until you start to understand what’s happening. This doesn’t mean doing nothing, just simpler gameplay where you have teammates to play around and good amounts of information to make the easier assumptions. 

 

TL;DR - Take the blame for mistakes, even if you feel they weren’t yours. What could you have done to improve the situation, regardless of what actually happened? Do this every game and you’ll be improving. Tier 10 is all about eliminating mistakes rather than improving positives.

 

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30 minutes ago, Deus__Ex__Machina said:

the Russians told me my 279e is balanced and you cant tell me otherwise.

Spreadsheet clearly states balanced. Da!

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Thanks for writing that @kolni - I (and I'm sure the rest of the community) appreciate the detail you went into.

My takeaways are:

  1. The meta isn't actually different, but acts of aggression/mistakes are more likely to be punished than tiers 8/9. In that way, I guess it is more like low tiers where you can die in 3 seconds if you get rushed/peak wrong?
  2. Partly explaining the point above, you get punished harder because of the severe tank imbalance/likelihood the enemy team has a number of "meta" tanks which fuck you up without you being able to damage them back (430U, Chieft, Ebola etc.). I guess into this category also falls all the tier 10 TDs - they will rape you super quick with one wrong peak.
  3. Also partly explaining 1. above, most players at tier 10 are mechanically sound players. So much less likely to completely school someone/get cheeky damage. This is exacerbated by the tough survivability of the "meta" tanks (even a cheeky peak on Ebola won't guarantee a pen with gold). This goes even further as players play positions well (hull down, corner peaking, TD shitlord spots), so taking advantage of misplays is much harder.
  4. The MM. Because you are much more likely to get all tier 10 than anything else, there is no "easy farm", which makes the gameplay seem much harder/less fun to get high DPG. This can probably lead to taking more risks looking for damage, resulting in a shit play feedback loop/tilt?
  5. Arty/TDs. I do think a lot of normal gameplay goes off the table when you have half the team in arty/TDs, which makes finding a rhythm much harder. I think most people would agree that 3 marking some tier 10 tanks (Chief, Ebola) is a lot more RNG than anything tier 9 and below, because you need the MM to be kind otherwise there is just no way you can reach the dmg you need due to the HP pool imbalance + requirement to play passive.

I guess in terms of further questions (and there might not even be an answer), I still don't know what can be done to counter hard camps/everyone in the "right place", beyond be passive. E.G. Mines or Airfield, every position locked down - what do you do in a Leo 1 or Prog 65 - just wait and hope for the best? Is the only way to get the DPG you want to ride out those games as much as possible and get dmg in other, easier games? I find that the campiness in all tier 10 gets ratcheted up to 11 - I do feel like the meta is different, although it may be me misreading points 2, 3 and 4 above. There are a lot of games when I am too passive and find that I get shit dmg at the end - this may be the tier 10 shitfest, or it could be more of the other topics people flagged (recognising a roflstomp, when to save HP/spend HP).

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I understand what K0lni means t0 say, the intent with all tier X  MM arm0ured cars are fairly easy t0 hit. And I can agree, they are, but 0nly using light and medium tanks, which have very quick travelling APCR as standard ammuniti0n, c0mpared t0 m0st heavy tanks (minus the Panzer Vll  &  260)  AP h0vering between nine-hundred and 0ne-th0usand. The TDs even less s0, h0vering between eight-hundred and nine-hundred. This makes arm0ured cars particularly frustrating t0 hit, especially when y0u d0 manage t0 hit them there is a chance it is a wasted tire hit. 

I c0mpletely agree with the assessment 0f c0mbat against tanks like Chieftain, Kran, UDES, Super C0nq  -  fighting against them hulld0wn. 99% 0f the time, there is s0mething better y0u can be d0ing, and it is just atr0ci0us t0 get je-baited int0 c0ntesting them. There are much better things y0u can d0 with y0ur time. Even if the 0pp0nent just has 0ne-hundred HP left,  HE is s0 unreliable it by n0 means is a guarantee either t0 s0lve y0ur pr0blem. This last week in an advance, a hulld0wn Chieftain had 171 HP, in my WZ5A I decided t0 test my luck with HE and dealt 43 damage. That w0uld take me an0ther 4 sh0ts, and nearly a minute t0 d0 what I needed. Frankly, unacceptable.

The pr0blem I have with tier X and the t0pic 0f incredibly imp0rtant vehicle selecti0n f0r viability (AKA ranked) is the am0unt 0f wasted eff0rt placed int0 getting the 0ddball tier X and then having them c0nstantly 0utplayed because 0f the am0unt 0f p0werful reward vehicles 0ut there n0wadays, them definitely being a pr0blem in rand0m public battle t00. N0t just CW/Adv.  0r 0ther vehicles simply getting replaced with newer releases.  We can agree that 121 never has been t00 useful, but it was 0nce unique, surely. 113 by n0 means a terrible tank, n0w what d0es it h0pe t0 achieve with 430U d0ing its j0b but with cam0 t00? 0r with buffs t0 0ther fast heavy tanks such as Kran, IS7, 0bj 260, and releasing WZ5A/277. W0uld any0ne want t0 play AMX30 n0w, with Le0pard just being a t0nne better? what TD actually d0es TD things pr0fessi0nally.  except Strv? 

 

Quote

 

Posted 20 hours ago  kolni

What could you have done to improve the situation, regardless of what actually happened? Do this every game and you’ll be improving

 

Really useful, really important. What could I have done better.  After every death, I ponder it.

 

 

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15 hours ago, echo9835 said:

Spreadsheet clearly states balanced. Da!

If they looked at spreadsheets they'd see it's not

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You know it takes them at minimum 6 months to collect enough data for spreadsheets.

 

Clearly though so little data exists for the 907/chief/279e because of how difficult they are to get it which obviously means that it will take another 3 years before there is enough data to balance those tanks properly. 

 

 

Meanwhile, we should just pump out these premium tanks that are like tech tree tanks but better because it brings in all the moneys gives players more options to earn credits in. 

 

 

Oh, but the biggest reason why we wont do anything is because we are going to make all these vast ammo changes and will only start collecting data once we implement that in a few years soon. 

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2 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

You know it takes them at minimum 6 months to collect enough data for spreadsheets.

 

Clearly though so little data exists for the 907/chief/279e because of how difficult they are to get it which obviously means that it will take another 3 years before there is enough data to balance those tanks properly. 

 

 

Meanwhile, we should just pump out these premium tanks that are like tech tree tanks but better because it brings in all the moneys gives players more options to earn credits in. 

 

 

Oh, but the biggest reason why we wont do anything is because we are going to make all these vast ammo changes and will only start collecting data once we implement that in a few years soon. 

 

Naaah. They are just incompetent. I bet it's a mix of bad hr, bad workplace environment and some stupid processes that discourage thinking. When Serb was running shit spreadsheets worked. Hell tanks were nerfed relatively quickly after release. They held them for a while so people freeexped towards them but then they nerfed them. Waffle was nerfed relatively quick, E5 too, Maus too. Also remember where test server led to smart changes? 

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19 hours ago, Snoregasm2 said:

I guess in terms of further questions (and there might not even be an answer), I still don't know what can be done to counter hard camps/everyone in the "right place", beyond be passive. E.G. Mines or Airfield, every position locked down - what do you do in a Leo 1 or Prog 65 - just wait and hope for the best? Is the only way to get the DPG you want to ride out those games as much as possible and get dmg in other, easier games? I find that the campiness in all tier 10 gets ratcheted up to 11 - I do feel like the meta is different, although it may be me misreading points 2, 3 and 4 above. There are a lot of games when I am too passive and find that I get shit dmg at the end - this may be the tier 10 shitfest, or it could be more of the other topics people flagged (recognising a roflstomp, when to save HP/spend HP).

This is so much me. I often at times feel myself running through scenarios and plays in my head, and basically seeing too much risk at every turn because the whole map is locked down by multiple TDs/arty/general campers and the poor map design that benefits these plays. But I then get frustrated that I am not doing anything, not progressing the game and that eternal worry about my team suddenly steamrolling the enemy and I get 1.5k damage is there as well.

If anything actually harms my attempts to 3 mark tier 10s (I have so many hovering in the late 80's/early 90's that I struggle to push over the line) is not actually the one sided losses, I can in most games usually do enough to at least break even or not lose to much, it's the games where my team wins so easily I do little but I have somehow found myself in the only part of the steamroll battle where the map is locked down by 3 base camping TDs, who know the game is lost so won't try anything but wait for me to attack them.

 

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My performance in tier X is far below that in the other tiers. I just feel either useless or I lose near all my HP the moment I get my gun in the game.

This is playing the same locations and styles that work as a tier IX tank in the same MM...

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1 hour ago, Private_Miros said:

My performance in tier X is far below that in the other tiers. I just feel either useless or I lose near all my HP the moment I get my gun in the game.

This is playing the same locations and styles that work as a tier IX tank in the same MM...

I find that you can sort of just sort of blunder your way to victory at tier 9 in a way that would not be possible with how 10s are played. 10s are expensive to play and people who play them do try to perform rather than derping around and having fun. People are cautious, etc. 

Before reading Kolni's poast, I never did figure out why I could perform so much better in the IS-7 (~2.9k DPG) than basically all my other 10s (2.3-2.4k) despite those e.g. 5A, 430U being objectively superior farming vehicles, at least on paper.

Tier 9 games are chaotic and fluid enough that you don't need and don't want to be in a pure assault tank to get away with aggression. For example, a 263 might be able to push just about everything, but you can do everything else in a T-10, and still pull off those stupid risky plays.

From my experience, tier 10 games are the opposite. Unless you are in a pure assault tank, always react. Even if you're in an IS-7 you are probably going to stick to reactive plays most of the time. 

What I'm not sure about is whether this is by design (unlikely) or just a natural consequence of people having more to lose at tier 10. Then again stupid aggression was also the thing when the 268 V4 and 430 U got released and the IS7 megabuffed.

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12 hours ago, hazzgar said:

 

Naaah. They are just incompetent. I bet it's a mix of bad hr, bad workplace environment and some stupid processes that discourage thinking. When Serb was running shit spreadsheets worked. Hell tanks were nerfed relatively quickly after release. They held them for a while so people freeexped towards them but then they nerfed them. Waffle was nerfed relatively quick, E5 too, Maus too. Also remember where test server led to smart changes? 

Surely you aren't taking my post seriously.

 

 

That being said, WG is balancing through spreadsheets. They just also balance through bean counters and bean counters are more important. 

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6 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Surely you aren't taking my post seriously.

 

 

That being said, WG is balancing through spreadsheets. They just also balance through bean counters and bean counters are more important. 

I take spreadsheets seriously.

 

Though in all honesty you assume too much planning on their side. That bean counters have taken over. Maybe they did but mostly it's bad processes and no one competent at the lead. It's a bigger process. Because of the incompetence in balance user drain might have started and then someone might have made a reasonably competent decision of "if we can't maintain our users lets milk it before it dies". That person may not even have the incentive to do anything else since mangers are rewarded for short term results so he won't be blamed for killing the game, he will get rewarded for milking people. Win win. Unfortunately this happens in many companies.

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I recently bought the Bat Chat back in an attempt to 3 mark it and aside from occasionally playing it as a light and doing some spotting, I seem to be most successful playing fairly passively most of the time which is a sad reflection of the tier 10 meta. 

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On 3/12/2020 at 11:06 AM, tajj7 said:

I recently bought the Bat Chat back in an attempt to 3 mark it and aside from occasionally playing it as a light and doing some spotting, I seem to be most successful playing fairly passively most of the time which is a sad reflection of the tier 10 meta. 

In my experience the Bat can struggle doing dmg as you often cant reload twice before the game is already over...

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20 hours ago, nabucodonsor said:

In my experience the Bat can struggle doing dmg as you often cant reload twice before the game is already over...

also get blapped by 490 alfa boomsticks every time you poke

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So, I played five games in the Centurion AX, and I just suck. I don't know what to do, I don't even know how to deal my HP in damage on average... I feel and play like a total bob.

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271876?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271879?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271881?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271883?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271884?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

These are just the five last ones I played at tier X, but they are representative of my complete lack of ability to perform except when the stars align a bit (like on Sand River, where I at least could farm damage).

 

 

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On 3/14/2020 at 11:38 PM, Private_Miros said:

So, I played five games in the Centurion AX, and I just suck. I don't know what to do, I don't even know how to deal my HP in damage on average... I feel and play like a total bob.

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271876?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271879?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271881?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271883?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5271884?secret=324a8d5ec4ebad249b074780124e2acc

These are just the five last ones I played at tier X, but they are representative of my complete lack of ability to perform except when the stars align a bit (like on Sand River, where I at least could farm damage).

 

 

I'll go through them tomorrow! Still trying to figure out how to break your topic into substance in a way that doesn't super ridiculously elitist or just incoherent gibberish

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Played another five Leopard 1 games, again abysmal performance. I feel more confident at doing damage as a tier 8 tank in a tier 10 game than in a tier 10 tank it seems...

Certainly in all tier X games I have issues. I push I get blasted to Mars by camping TDs. I don't push, my team melts at record speed around me.

The loss is there anyway (I have 1 win in like 30 tier X battles since my return).

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Because I'm playing Ranked I'm getting PTSD flashbacks to recently playing tier 10s in randoms. So much camping. Mistakes punished so hard. So much cancer focus if you push forward.

Yeah, yeah, I know Ranked is even more ebola than randoms due to the incentive structure, and I know I sound like a tin foil hat wanker but the meta at tier 10 does feel so fucking different to everything else.

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11 hours ago, Snoregasm2 said:

Because I'm playing Ranked I'm getting PTSD flashbacks to recently playing tier 10s in randoms. So much camping. Mistakes punished so hard. So much cancer focus if you push forward.

Yeah, yeah, I know Ranked is even more ebola than randoms due to the incentive structure, and I know I sound like a tin foil hat wanker but the meta at tier 10 does feel so fucking different to everything else.

Correction, not EBOLA, COVID-19

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@Private_Miros I was never great but since coming back last month I've become an Uber shitlord while Tier X games have definitely become even more boring. A few years ago I was finally learning to abuse map opportunities but now everyone is camping harder and any aggressive play makes you arty-magnet numero uno, dos and tres. I'm sucking at Tier 8 but at least I can carry the odd game - annoyingly 3k games are coming easier at T8 than Tier X, but that's partly because my play is so shitty when I'm less medicated or on the MM.

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38 minutes ago, Tigeh said:

@Private_Miros I was never great but since coming back last month I've become an Uber shitlord while Tier X games have definitely become even more boring. A few years ago I was finally learning to abuse map opportunities but now everyone is camping harder and any aggressive play makes you arty-magnet numero uno, dos and tres. I'm sucking at Tier 8 but at least I can carry the odd game - annoyingly 3k games are coming easier at T8 than Tier X, but that's partly because my play is so shitty when I'm less medicated or on the MM.

That's exactly what I'm experiencing. I feel good on a few maps, but others and tier X it's extremely difficult to be consistent.

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Thank you so much for making this wordy yet VERY helpful guide/advice on better performing in T10 games..... I for one struggle a lot at that level and i'm not a bad player, I love T9 and really want to push my performance more by playing in T10 but everytime i do, all motivation, patience and focus just goes out of me and end up doing stupid shit or playing really poor which makes me look like a bot or something even though i'm not that bad and it's quite embarrassing really.

I like grinding which is one of my enjoyments in the game and due to T10 having none of that is another issue with my incentive to even play T10..... Half me says to play it in order to improve and the other half just wants to grind more, so i'm fighting with myself on what i want.

Since reading this however, i think it has helped open my eyes a little more to some of my issues that i need to work a lot harder on and that is in Map Awareness (Not bad but after reading this, certainly needs more work) and being able to Predict ahead of time, it has been noted.

I am a jack of all trades tanker and enjoy playing all classes to learn them and their playstyles, so i have a mixture of all experiences..... My most played class is Mediums and also Lights (until EBR came along and ruined it for me), followed by Heavies, TDs and SPG and yes i do play them but not a class i would feel is a good idea for improving with.

My question is: What tanks would you suggest is best for learning with that's not to broken or OP?, I say that because i don't want to rely on a tank thats noob friendly so to say and want to learn the proper way without relying on a tank such as that to work with, if that makes sense?

Thank you however for putting this topic up as it's just what i've been looking for, in ways that help simplify things bit more and this certainly helped :)

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