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Tier 10 Struggles (response to Snoregasm)

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5 hours ago, kolni said:

 

Thank you so much for putting the time in to do this with what was a session of what even I considered sub-par play (and my on par play ever was barely even close to half yours). So I can only imagine the frustration at the play on your end.

I have a tendency to be over-aggressive, so in learning maps and positions, there's where the over-cautiousness comes in. There were a few instances where you opened my eyes to a few instances of game reading, and the trade in exposing yourself and making sure you get the damaging shot off. In other instances I actually saw that happen on the minimap but simply lack the current meta and map knowledge to know how to react to it. I'm then I'm too nervous in tier X to try new things...

I should also start watching my own replays, as there were a few instances where I noticed how long my gun was out of the fight. And I was yelling at myself for not moving or reacting earlier.

Apart from obvious learning through experience I take away as most important:

- better map awareness in terms of team composition and taking or losing key areas.

- making more sure to deal damage, on important targets, even if it means exposing yourself a bit more.

- faster repositioning or aggressive action if your gun is out of the game

- more focus on depleting repair kits before that aggressive action.

 

I guess I should go with the flow and run food in the end then as well.

 

(Though the last few days I just forgot how to play at any tier it seems.)

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first game was winnable for sure, with 0 mechanical misplay you would have evened out the score at the end and have the HP to kill the Skorp off, considering the 140 was AFK all you needed to win that game at the end was 6-800HP to use after killing the 1-4 to have a real shot at carrying it.. the other games you were not as able to really influence the outcome in a CAX, Karelia especially I had a hard time figuring out how to get even an acceptable game out of it at all. No proactive play anywhere seemed good and Karelia is a shitty ass map to play passively on with 3 arties.. you could have done more but that game was tricky, besides some clever trading on the IS-7 (imo u could have farmed from full to 0 with max one shot taken) and then pushing the TD behind there just wasn’t any situation on the map with any substantial damage to farm

serene showcases your mechanical issues very well, i would have dumped every single shell you fired that game into their tracks to keep them in place and farmable to win out on trades - CAX turret is only strong when you poke on them, not when they poke on you. After they blow repkit you have a 90 second window to figure out how to kill them as cleanly as possible and with gun dep as a CAX you will always be able to shoot their tracks there, pull back on rld, retrack and mitigate the damage taken and win the C1 engage before the enemy team pushes you through middle into it, prolonging the game (not super carryable and hard to see how to get out of it alive but 3k+ dmg extra easy was there to farm for free)

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i really can’t stress enough how valuable track shots are for farming, not just for you but your teammates as well - if the enemy can’t move they can’t get safe and cannot fight on their terms which is always what you want to be doing, even in autoloaders i spam trackshots despite risking not damaging a shot for either burning their repkit or keeping them in place in a position where they are farmable. that’s where you want to keep your enemies ideally, keep them in the sweet spot where you can fight them but they can’t push you

you also seem to value staying alive over impacting the game a tad too much, this is not a habit i would remove though, all it needs is a slight adjustment (staying alive is still a super important aspect and should be valued very highly) so i would advise you to try more things out - as you’re returning from a long break the mechanics come back eventually but you want to get as deep into the meta-read ASAP meaning you’re going to have to try stuff and test limits on what works and what doesnt before you can start doing set plays and think ahead of pace (pro-active gameplay instead of reactive) and VERY many of those games are gonna look like shit and play like shit but they will be useful going forward which is what you want to be focusing on to improve

 

i tend to spam games for 2-4 weeks before going on hiatus again for 2 months as that’s what my uni schedule lets me do (no time to game pmuch) and that is how i have played for the past 2 years (or just not play at all) and it’s the same for me every time:

im rusty and need to work on my mechanics first> then i need to get my meta read up to speed and until i have like 200+ games under my belt since coming back i am actually a pretty mediocre superuni and my stats arent great until i get back to speed but i have done this process so many times now that i can be aware of this and get some monster games on experience alone to help my averages in the mean time but i am still in a learning mindset before tryharding (helps A LOT with staying sane too)

this is the same for trying new tanks for me, my first 10 games are always great but set 20-50 really suck because i’m still limit testing and die a lot in stupid places because i am not able to estimate capabilities yet and stopped the ”new tank tryhard caution” thing (idk if this is a thing for other players but it definitely is for me lol) 

my gameplay starts to shine when i have put enough time into the game AND tank im playing which means i two major objectives to achieve before really being able to tryhard and stop the learning process and focus on damage gameplay at all times to stop the stupid dying and keep consistency up

some players like Barry seem to be the other way around, plug n play and super fast at getting meta-reads even after long breaks but for me there is a substantial flat quantity of games i need to play before i can perform well enough to my own standards but every single one of those games have some purpose behind them so you can speed this process up to ~200 (for me, likely less for others) games rather than the 10k+ games it took to become a super-uni in the first place right 

obviously i don’t show my learning periods of gameplay as they’re not great which is also how i avoid getting revealed in Hall of Fame when boosting as I happen to downpad my stats a lot before the tryhard kicks in and 6k combined average sessions start to stack up :P 

the point being is that getting back up to speed takes proper testing of what works and what doesn’t before you can start playing the game for real and until you get comfortable you’re always going to play worse than normal so focus on that first, then start pushing your luck in game as often as you can (without being retarded - this is a finer line to walk than what it looks like) to get as much value out of every game as possible until you feel you have enough information available to play a map/tank combination out with a solid gameplan and able to problemsolve them when they don’t work. When you reach that point is when you start feeling real differences in gameplay, when I stagnate I just repeat this again until I hit my standards. It’s a tedious process but when performance is a requirement for fun it’s important not to cheat and rely on old experiences when you need to play catch up

 

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13 hours ago, SlyMeerkat said:

My question is: What tanks would you suggest is best for learning with that's not to broken or OP?, I say that because i don't want to rely on a tank thats noob friendly so to say and want to learn the proper way without relying on a tank such as that to work with, if that makes sense?

Thank you however for putting this topic up as it's just what i've been looking for, in ways that help simplify things bit more and this certainly helped :)

Depends on what you want to learn, sounds like a douchy answer but it's kind of important as you pick up different things from different vehicles. Your experiences and subjective playstyle also mean you pick up different things than other people will from the same situations. Start off with if you want to get better at a gameplay element or just a specific tank. The first is much more useful as you can apply those to many more tanks but they don't come with experience as you often have to actively play towards your goal to learn from it rather than focusing on playing as well as possible which is something that very many have trouble letting go of (myself included). 

Autoloaders for example gives you a lot of practice playing as the center of attention, as you deal burst damage people focus you and that focus is exactly what you can take with you and apply to other tanks as well, having 1k autoloader games banked will end up mattering when you're playing as a top tier single shooter in a 357, again as the center of attention, especially with multiple arties. This should help connect the dots that you can learn something elsewhere than where you want to apply it. 357MM as top tier is much more rare and doesn't let you practice controlling the game very often, but you can spam autoloaders days on end and practice this specific thing for as long as you want, and then apply it to the tank you feel just gets too much focus for you to play well. OP tanks tend to get more focus, so this is what I did to bypass that problem and get better. You'll also pick up other things meanwhile practicing specifics, and don't pidgeon hole yourself into only that specific thing but remaining aware of the other positives you experienced during the practice of what you want to improve to speed up these processes. 

This is not the only things autoloaders are good for when it comes to practice, but it's one that is hard to practice anywhere else. As I previously mentioned you want a comfortable practice environment that generally means going down tiers to simplify gameplay to get good practice. Good practice doesn't mean easy games though, you don't learn from easy games. You want to be challenged but still be in control. That's a thin line to walk but where you're going to learn the most. You want as many of your games as possible to be fruitful for the future, which is different from playing for performance. Performance means no risk-taking, but learning generally means the opposite as you want to expand your options and as a result will end up being having to try new things and see what works. This is a lot of stupid dying and derpy games, but that is fine as long as you take something from them. Just remember to toggle this off once you feel comfortable with the topic you decided to practice though and go back to risk-averse gameplay with your newly refined skillset. The thing is you want to get a feel of what is actually a risk and what is not and you don't really get to that point without testing your limits.

Risk-averse mean something entirely different for a 50% player and me. Playing passive in my eyes would still be considered aggressive to most players because they don't know that the decisions I'm making have sound reasoning behind them and thus less risky to make than meets the eye, they are totally safe because I ran the numbers before making it. So risk is  percieved as subjective, and you want to make it as objective as possible meaning you want information and really nurture your ability to interpret the information. There are many "close calls" that were nothing of the kind, and there were also situations where I really fucked up but no one was aware enough to catch my mistake. When that happens I try my best to recognise them as mistakes still, it's hard but mistakes usually don't go unpunished in tier 10 so remembering it for next time has generally been a net positive over letting them go for the sake of my ego. 

Start off with figuring out one of your bigger issues in gameplay for a certain tank. Try to figure out a setting that makes you practice this, whether it's something simple to work on like dying less or more nuanced like getting better at reading enemy intentions etc is totally up to you. The important thing is to determine a gameplay aspect that could use improvement and simply doing something towards that goal as you play. 

If DPG or stats is of any concern then you want to limit test in a different tank than the one you want to improve, I couldn't care less about my service record so I generally just spam the tank I want to get better at directly. I rarely practice specifics like above anymore as I tend to focus on the specific tank for a pretty substantial period of time if my performance isn't what I want it to be yet instead. (M60 would be a good example, I was nowhere close to 3marking it at the start but after 500 games or so I had the highest average on the server by like 900 for the last 50 of them because I just stuck to it and really got the playstyle locked down on every single map, starting at sub 4k DPG for first 50 and 5,8k for the 50 at the end which is a HUGE difference considering it actually had very little to do with good/bad sessions).

This is probably because I tend to pick these things up by sheer game quantity over quality practice. I don't really practice in that way anymore because when I do end up playing again I tend to have a specific goal in mind and only playing towards that. (Generally a T10 reward tank 3MoE or DPG challenge). I tend to stick to one tank until I am satisfied and that's what works for me right now with how often I play the game these days. Doesn't really matter what tank in the end, go through your replays if you're struggling to find what you're doing wrong and inspect them until you find a lapse in judgement, be more precise and nitpicky as you get further into this and you'll eventually find yourself becoming a better player.

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@kolni you are fucking treasure for all that

Personally, came back to wot recently, played some 140 at some point, 2500 dpg for like 20 games and I went to cry in a corner. Gave up on tier X, went into tier IX, 300 games total, T-10 and 704, 2750 and 2850 respectively w/ marks for T-10 and hopefully 3rd for 704 tomorrow. Not sure if I got better, or I really suck at tier X, will go back to 140 over the week and try get it up over 3k dpg. Gonna report back on what I think changed if things work out.

I will be livid if I break 3k dpg in my 704 before any tier 10 lmao, granted I only had an IS-7 until fairly recently.

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On 3/23/2020 at 5:13 PM, Private_Miros said:

Thank you so much for putting the time in to do this with what was a session of what even I considered sub-par play (and my on par play ever was barely even close to half yours). So I can only imagine the frustration at the play on your end.

I have a tendency to be over-aggressive, so in learning maps and positions, there's where the over-cautiousness comes in. There were a few instances where you opened my eyes to a few instances of game reading, and the trade in exposing yourself and making sure you get the damaging shot off. In other instances I actually saw that happen on the minimap but simply lack the current meta and map knowledge to know how to react to it. I'm then I'm too nervous in tier X to try new things...

I should also start watching my own replays, as there were a few instances where I noticed how long my gun was out of the fight. And I was yelling at myself for not moving or reacting earlier.

Apart from obvious learning through experience I take away as most important:

- better map awareness in terms of team composition and taking or losing key areas.

- making more sure to deal damage, on important targets, even if it means exposing yourself a bit more.

- faster repositioning or aggressive action if your gun is out of the game

- more focus on depleting repair kits before that aggressive action.

 

I guess I should go with the flow and run food in the end then as well.

 

(Though the last few days I just forgot how to play at any tier it seems.)

Hey mate, not @kolni but he's been kind enough to give me a lot of advice in the past, and also reviewed my replays, and I see a little of myself in you, so I wanted to add some other takeways after watching the video:

  • Always use large meds/first aids/food at tier 10. Always. If you burn, use the firefighting directive. If you don't (especially food, but all 3 really), you gimp yourself unnecessarily. I mean, you got ammo racked so many times and a couple were tracks at the same time - large rep kit helps with that. You also lost to crew to one arty shell - again, large first aid kit helps.
  • You've been shit on so many times in the past for being over aggressive that it has made you hyper cautious - I know the feeling exactly. What Kolni told me in the past is really good advice - always think "where is the damage?". It's essential. You're going to a flank to fight hull down heavies - why? There's no damage there. You're staying behind a rock waiting to either get artied or heavy tanked? Why? There's no damage there. An easy trick if you can't see the enemy team positioning is to just follow your lemming train, whichever is the biggest one. You can play around your heavies for at least some reliable damage if you don't know the good farming spots.
  • Which leads me on to the next point - i can see you're clearly out of the meta. On all 3 of Karelia (the rock Kolni mentioned - only real weakness is arty and blind firing, and hard to fall back from if you wait too long), Tundra (The bush Kolni mentioned - try and watch a replay as this is worth 2 shots reliably at the start of each game) and Serene Coast (There is a bush between the small houses where you can cross the spot and get damage/spotting - just today i got 2.5k combined in the first minute in my Borrousque) there are amazing early game spots for meds. If you're struggling for 3k dmg in tier 10, these are all super easy spots to autopilot too and get some free dmg. This will take time if you're out of the meta - you might not care enough to take it this far, but i'd watch CarryBarry or Nial from FAME, or other good streamers (even Daki will show you) for these spots - it is easy enough to copy once you know them.
  • Actually thinking is hard. That's not an insult - i'm the same. I'll often be on Chrome whilst the game counts down. The upshot i 99.99% of players don't analyse line ups like Kolni did in the video. Trying to 2nd guess the enemy and - more importantly - paying attention to your own team's early positioning, can make or break early damage and frustrating steam rolls. The Tundra game was a case in point - you guaranteed yourself a shit game in the first 5 seconds. Most people play tired, or not wanting to pay that much attention, but the only way to really, really improve on that shit is to treat it almost like a job. Paying a little attention early is a really useful tip that i take into account when tryharding.
On 3/23/2020 at 11:09 PM, kolni said:

you also seem to value staying alive over impacting the game a tad too much, this is not a habit i would remove though, all it needs is a slight adjustment (staying alive is still a super important aspect and should be valued very highly) so i would advise you to try more things out - as you’re returning from a long break the mechanics come back eventually but you want to get as deep into the meta-read ASAP meaning you’re going to have to try stuff and test limits on what works and what doesnt before you can start doing set plays and think ahead of pace (pro-active gameplay instead of reactive) and VERY many of those games are gonna look like shit and play like shit but they will be useful going forward which is what you want to be focusing on to improve

 

That is the hardest balance I find at tier 10. And it still is. It is so easy to die quick, get farmed etc. It is such a weird mental block for me - i can smash tier 8 and 9 (Even in tier 10 games) all day long, but playing a tier 10 (Especially in an all tier 10 game) I either do jack shit or die too easily. Relatively - i'll still pull 3k+, but that's pretty shit in a tier 10 considering I now pull 3.5k+ in tier 9 meds.

If you've recovered from your not corona i might try and send some tier 10 replays for review, if you're up for it?

Also, thanks again for this - you're basically keeping this forum semi-alive with this type of insight/commentary.

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1 hour ago, Snoregasm2 said:

snip

Thanks for the tips! It's a struggle to relearn the best ways to approach maps.

And highly supporting the compliment to Kolni for providing quality content to these forums.

 

On a side note, I'd really love some visual guidance for good potential starting spots on the maps...

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My god this is a great thread! Learned a lot from the video of Miros' replays! Please more like this kolni! 

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Okay kolni since ranked battles are purely tier x can you do a session maybe an hour playing 48patton or is7 or other normal not overpowered tanks and showcase how to do well, because I have been struggling alot with ranked battles, every single game feels like an uphill battle, not once did I have a normal game, a standard game where everyone positions appropriately on the map and people play their roles... 

I would really like to see how you would do and maybe do a commentary as to why you make certain decisions

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In ASIA meta, which is likely completely different to EU meta, games are a lot more campy.

Numbers are required to make plays, so never do anything alone.

Every map plays a certain way in ranked and you can generally judge whether games are a win or a loss in the first 2 minutes 75% of the time. Mistakes will be punished. Make sure you know where the common camping spots are. 

 

Hyper-aggressive gameplay will generally lead to more wins if it isn't directly countered - if you can drag your team along with you and you have an approrpriate tank. In a non-meta tank, just sit with the blobs. 

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On 3/27/2020 at 11:28 PM, Snoregasm2 said:

If you've recovered from your not corona i might try and send some tier 10 replays for review, if you're up for it?

Also, thanks again for this - you're basically keeping this forum semi-alive with this type of insight/commentary.

Hit me with a few games, (close games that were lost and average games are best for me to review at least)

On 3/30/2020 at 2:13 PM, _pip_ said:

My god this is a great thread! Learned a lot from the video of Miros' replays! Please more like this kolni! 

I'll stick around and do content whenever I can, I've had my fun with the tryharding in WoT but it is also a pleasure to see other people grow under your tutorledge. My content is almost entirely based on my own opinions rather than actual facts and data so I tend to differ from the norm in some cases. 

Hit me with replays and I'll do 5 of yours as well, tier 10 or 9 preferably and games that had a lot of decisions in them if you get what I mean. (I can do the review privately, almost all my reviews are unlisted and only viewable through my links, so if you want it privately - that's no problem. 

 

This goes for anyone else too. 

Post in the replay thread of anything you want reviewed!

 

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@kolni I appreciate the offer so here I am at 5am scrolling through replays. I tried to improve at/mark IS-7 and was plagued by inconsistency/ mediocre map knowledge. I suck at heavies big time. Desperation is probably my pit fall, I don't make dumb mistakes out of anger, I do it out of desperation to maintain a standard. 

 http://wotreplays.eu/site/5304433#stats

Passive all game, only just got to 3.5k combined when mopping up. Definitely didn't win the game, potential for a lot more I feel.

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5304435#stats

Not bad, but winnable loss. I think positioning cost me at the end.

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5304434#mountain_pass-ham-is-7

Short game and not decision heavy, couldn't find a good 5th replay so picked this, saw this bridge push going the other way by a DE-VI member, and the person ended up with 10k. So I tried to do something going the opposite direction, ended up looking like a retard. Wonder what your thoughts are on this.

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5304436#el_halluf-ham-is-7

Failure to get any meaningful damage at all. Completely lost trying to clean up.. Not proud of this at all.

http://wotreplays.eu/site/5304437#malinovka-ham-object_430

430 replay that tilted me, felt ineffective and useless. Excuse the brain dead spotting bush attempt ;d.

 

Please do whatever you want, stick me on a billboard if you need, don't care about tenks privacy.

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5 hours ago, Ham_ said:

@kolni replays

Recorded and uploading right now, not sure how the audio is but it'll have to suffice

(might still be processing)

There were lots of good and lots of bad in your replays, I spend a bit of time rambling on the end of ur video about what I think could help you improve further. You seem to have decent awareness and mechanically you're playing well (even close up sniping in x16 which is just heresy IMO - go x8 like the cool people) but your decisionmaking varies heavily between good and bad and you seem to have trouble figuring that part out on which is which. I hope my words help you, but to me (I'm pretty heavily medicated these days so a bit dumber than usual) it seems that your main issue is just figuring out what to do at times. You seem to know how to mechanically outplay people which puts you above most of the playerbase and also micromanage to better your HP management to a decent degree but some of your decisions are just straight up awful and I think that might have to do with that you're trying to read the MM and drawing the wrong things from them rather than not reading it. 

You also don't have any sense of urgency when you play., things need to happen fast fast fast when you see an opening but you (and almost everyone I ever reviewed in all fairness) don't really seem to have that go button to instantly go for something the second you see an opening. Those seconds matter (as seen in Miros' Sand River game where his uncertainty lost his chance of winning the game for example) and there's is none of that at all in the replays. 

You want as much info as you can before deciding , but the second you have enough information to make the right decision is when you want to do it, not pondering it for another 15 seconds as the window could close or you just lost 15 seconds worth of time for no reason. Time is usually an enemy, and only an ally when you're losing as a defending team on assault - treat it like that. Where is the earliest damage you can get safely on map X? How do you play it out? What if you get pushed? What if you get outtraded early? 

Think these things before you engage something, there are things that shouldn't go wrong but do, and having fallbacks really do matter.

You use terrain decently well, some disagreements on my end on positioning sometimes but using your environment seem to be a skill that you already have, and many just never get. That's a good sign IMO. 

 

Biggest piece of criticism: USE BIG KITS IT IS 2020 HELLO??? A smart Strv would have killed your Ruinberg game pretty fast - for running a small kit. Game would be over early with nothing done because of that choice. It does matter. You were lucky he didn't re-track. IMO you should hold your repkit to see if you can repair your track before getting hit again - if so then u can repair the ammorack but otherwise you have to consider using it on the track at the risk of permatracking

Penultimate criticism: 6 HE made me literally facepalm

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5 hours ago, kolni said:

Thank you so much for the free content, very informative.

(even close up sniping in x16 which is just heresy IMO - go x8 like the cool people)

Mostly personal, I have severe dispositions to laxity in my wrist/elbow, and as a avid fps gamer/ classic pianist, WoT is my respite so I play it in a minimal effort way. I fully appreciate the tendency to tunnel vision, but I have being using extended zoom since the original mod and I feel much better for it, compared to the x8 cap days.

You also don't have any sense of urgency when you play. Time is usually an enemy.

Fair points.

Biggest piece of criticism: USE BIG KITS IT IS 2020 HELLO??? 

Sorry, stuck in 2014, still have a habit of selling them for more tanks I swear I will though :drunk:

Penultimate criticism: 6 HE made me literally facepalm

Some times I meet a Super Conq that I can't do anything about, any he can't do anything about me, so I start throwing these out of spite. Only reason. Same with 430 HE shot at Type 4, pure unadulterated spite.

You did mention you didn't see many aggressive set plays, I purposely omitted those replays because they were all 5k+ combined although it was generally mostly spotting. I value the time you have given already so I will just post some screenshots, I don't think it's too hard to tell if it was bad or not because they were fairly brazen.

 

Won hill, straight wkey down to pond, get rid of people in cap, then straight into forest. Only 2k damage but 5k spot 

0oYGu3N.jpgy7Vkm5O.jpg

 

Team is heavy camping left side 

3.png Molest Leopard
4.png Killed by a pixel perfect turret pen, but still managed 5.5k combined.
5.png Landslide win in the end

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lesson 1 is don't go to places where enemy tanks that you can't fight anyway

go to places where you get easy damage off, then you go hunting for more and repeat

don't go hill against super conqs and types in a 430.. you just simply can't win that so you would have been better off either dropping down for the aggressive spot play or the slowplay on the E3 I talked about

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On 4/2/2020 at 11:29 AM, kolni said:

 

lesson 1 is don't go to places where enemy tanks that you can't fight anyway

go to places where you get easy damage off, then you go hunting for more and repeat

don't go hill against super conqs and types in a 430.. you just simply can't win that so you would have been better off either dropping down for the aggressive spot play or the slowplay on the E3 I talked about

 

This is one of the big things I mentally fight over constantly.      I hear win the hill and all the other mantras.   But then I see conq’s and super conqs and I’m not in one.       But I’ll be in a slow tank that can’t win a hull down fight with them,  and I think to myself that the game is already over.   Then I literally don’t know where to go

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Ruinberg middle road is really hard to play from that spawn if the enemy push into the little down and sit behind the rubble where there is a hulldown. If the enemy meds are stupid and dont go there, middle road play is literally gg farmville. 

 

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17 minutes ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Ruinberg middle road is really hard to play from that spawn if the enemy push into the little down and sit behind the rubble where there is a hulldown. If the enemy meds are stupid and dont go there, middle road play is literally gg farmville. 

 

just line up a track shot before they can cross if you feel able to clutch it, drive straight to match (spotting earlier) then turn left to use ridge and you have a timer until heavies can poke from mid, from start until then you hold the shot for a good track shot, there's generally only one doing it (if anyone is doing it) so even if he can shoot back you will at least trade 1f1 before being able to back off if it  fails

i still go there every game because there isn't a better play, enemy team gets it means you lose field a minute later at most

i never, ever commit into the actual mid road though until field is reasonably won already

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11 minutes ago, kolni said:

just line up a track shot before they can cross if you feel able to clutch it, drive straight to match (spotting earlier) then turn left to use ridge and you have a timer until heavies can poke from mid, from start until then you hold the shot for a good track shot, there's generally only one doing it (if anyone is doing it) so even if he can shoot back you will at least trade 1f1 before being able to back off if it  fails

 i still go there every game because there isn't a better play, enemy team gets it means you lose field a minute later at most

i never, ever commit into the actual mid road though until field is reasonably won already

Yeah going mid road when the enemy has pushed up against your side of the field is almost suicidal and makes you useless. 

I never really think about punishing that cross since there is usually pubbies right in front to shoot at and no one really crosses for some reason. 

 

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