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Corona Virus vs WotLabs Community Megathread

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13 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

Right, but I thought that that inflammation usually came from a secondary infection.  Is that not the case?  Are we seeing that this virus creates that degree of inflammation on its own?

Cytokine Storm Syndrome

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12 minutes ago, Ham_ said:

Cytokine Storm Syndrome

So then, similarly to Spanish Flu, it's often killing via an immune system overreaction?

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6 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

Right, but I thought that that inflammation usually came from a secondary infection.  Is that not the case?  Are we seeing that this virus creates that degree of inflammation on its own?

Yup.

To be precise: 

“The mechanism of pulmonary inflammation in COVID appears to involve anti-spike protein antibodies and high affinity FcgR1 receptor expression by M1 type macrophages that mediate the severe pulmonary inflammation.”

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26 minutes ago, sr360 said:

Yup.

To be precise: 

“The mechanism of pulmonary inflammation in COVID appears to involve anti-spike protein antibodies and high affinity FcgR1 receptor expression by M1 type macrophages that mediate the severe pulmonary inflammation.”

Huh.  I'm going off what I read about the Spanish Flu a week or so ago on Wikipedia, but didn't that result in the S.F. being more lethal for young adults than older age cohorts?  IIRC they said young pregnant women had the worst mortality rates, and actually lost the baby in the womb 25% of the time.

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26 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

Huh.  I'm going off what I read about the Spanish Flu a week or so ago on Wikipedia, but didn't that result in the S.F. being more lethal for young adults than older age cohorts?  IIRC they said young pregnant women had the worst mortality rates, and actually lost the baby in the womb 25% of the time.

The Spanish Flu was caused by the H1N1 variant of the Influenza virus, which is distinct from COVID-19, caused by the SARS-CoV-2 strain of Coronavirus. It seems SARS-CoV-2 has a higher propensity to cause a cytokine storm and progress to ARDS. One of the treatment options being tested is tocilizumab (Actemra) and anti-IL6 agent which appears to tamp down some of the cytokine storm and thereby attenuate the severity of the illness.

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43 minutes ago, sr360 said:

The Spanish Flu was caused by the H1N1 variant of the Influenza virus, which is distinct from COVID-19, caused by the SARS-CoV-2 strain of Coronavirus. It seems SARS-CoV-2 has a higher propensity to cause a cytokine storm and progress to ARDS. One of the treatment options being tested is tocilizumab (Actemra) and anti-IL6 agent which appears to tamp down some of the cytokine storm and thereby attenuate the severity of the illness.

If the Spanish Flu caused a Cytokine Storm, and youth deaths from Spanish Flu was enormous, is youth mortality very low in COVID-19 cases just because of our ability to better treat the syndrome using drugs etc like what you mentioned? If yes, how readily available are these treatments, and if limited, why isn't there huge numbers of deaths in third world countries? I'm on the Engineering side of biomed so please correct me if I'm spewing retardation.

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1 hour ago, Ham_ said:

why isn't there huge numbers of deaths in third world countries? 

My suspicion is that's mostly because it hasn't made it there in significant numbers yet.

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2 hours ago, Ham_ said:

If the Spanish Flu caused a Cytokine Storm, and youth deaths from Spanish Flu was enormous, is youth mortality very low in COVID-19 cases just because of our ability to better treat the syndrome using drugs etc like what you mentioned? If yes, how readily available are these treatments, and if limited, why isn't there huge numbers of deaths in third world countries? I'm on the Engineering side of biomed so please correct me if I'm spewing retardation.

From my reading, I'm not sure we know exactly the whys of Spanish flu. I have read a number of theories, but my reading on Spanish Flu is confined to mostly lay press. Ezz is right-- COVID-19 hasn't really hit a 3rd world country in force yet -- Iran counts, but there is widespread suspicion that they are underreporting their numbers. If it hits the subcontinent in force, we will see how already subpar health systems will cope.

The treatments that people have tried for COVD-19: remedesvir, tocilizumab and HCQ, are starting to be in short supply. Remedesvir, is non-FDA approved, and available for compassionate use only, and right now there is none to be had, and tocilizumab is in short supply everywhere. HCQ stocks are starting to dwindle too. 

You may be partially correct: possibly the youth deaths are lower because we have modern healthcare which allows them to recover, whereas in 1918 that level of medical care just was not there... That's not proven fact though.

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I feel like Africa would get absolutely rolled by it. Massive portions of the population are HIV+, tied in with a host of other health issues, malnutrition, poor hygiene, etc. To top it off, the most dysfunctional health systems in the world.

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11 minutes ago, PityFool said:

I feel like Africa would get absolutely rolled by it. Massive portions of the population are HIV+, tied in with a host of other health issues, malnutrition, poor hygiene, etc. To top it off, the most dysfunctional health systems in the world.

Oh absolutely. Although I don't think the subcontinent would fare much better: it is incredibly densely populated, with an impoverished populace used to being packed together, no concept of following rules promulgated by government, and healthcare systems second only in creakiness to Africa.

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7 hours ago, sr360 said:

Oh absolutely. Although I don't think the subcontinent would fare much better: it is incredibly densely populated, with an impoverished populace used to being packed together, no concept of following rules promulgated by government, and healthcare systems second only in creakiness to Africa.

 

6 hours ago, Wanderjar said:

yeah India just declared a lockdown nationwide. We'll see how well that works I guess.
 

It sounds like India reacted to this very aggressively early on.  They shut down travel into the country early, and they're restricting export of an antimalarial drug which seems to have some value against the Wuhan coronavirus.  I don't know how a drug that kills protozoa also ends up killing viruses, but that's what people are saying.

I'm sure India is very glad that their northwestern border only gets so much traffic, what with poor relations with Pakistan and all, and their northern and northeastern border is in the Himalayas.

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I have a really uncommon question: what UNofficial news say in your countries? Do they confirm what governments and med institutions say or they are trying to say the situation is at least a bit worse?

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Might not the answer you are looking for due to our -special- socio political atmosphere.

Aside from the dashboard, every piece of news and events are spread through, fact checked by social media.

Background check whether the data source or media sources have relation to China, that will hint the likeliness of being fake / manipulated. Hence we reach far for information, looking at foreign news, independent reports, articles and so on. It has been a media war for a long time.

Basically to compensate our incompetent government’s decisions. They always leave a backdoor for China when it comes to making new measurements

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10 minutes ago, Unavailebow said:

Might not the answer you are looking for due to our -special- socio political atmosphere.

Aside from the dashboard, every piece of news and events are spread through, fact checked by social media.

Background check whether the data source or media sources have relation to China, that will hint the likeliness of being fake / manipulated. Hence we reach far for information, looking at foreign news, independent reports, articles and so on. 

Basically to compensate our incompetent government’s decisions. They always leave a backdoor for China when it comes to making new measurements

Unfortunately, this is the case for almost all major news agencies right now.  China - and I apologize ahead of time if this gets too political, my intent is not to step on anybody's toes - China is not to be touched or criticized.  You can see this in the current demand, which happened practically overnight, that we must never refer to this virus as "the Wuhan virus."  Clearly, as with all past such diseases (Spanish flu, German measles, Ebola, Lyme disease, etc.) people don't call it the "Wuhan virus" to sneer at people from Wuhan, who clearly didn't cook the virus up for fun, it's done simply because the disease started there or (in the case of Spanish flu) because historical accident associated it with that place.  Ebola is a river in Africa, Lyme is a town in Connecticut, and so forth.

But of course, just as news companies were loathe to say anything negative about Saddam Hussein before he got the boot because they were afraid he'd kick them out of the country, the media are afraid to cover anything that would reflect poorly on the CCP, from organ transplant questions to Uighurs and now to this new strain of coronavirus.  The media called it "the Wuhan virus" for a good while, until they all turned on a dime and claimed we shouldn't call it that and anybody who does is being a racist douche, despite a long, long history of naming diseases after locations.

Same with entertainment companies; only a year ago, DC comics was publishing a series of "international" heroes in their universe - the most prominent of which happened to be the Chinese answer to Superman.  Naturally he and his teammates worked for the Chinese government, with no irony noted of the character of that government.  The (unnecessary) remake of Red Dawn had to make a last minute change of the bad guys invading the US to North Koreans rather than Chinese, as absurd as that change is - because China demanded it, and Hollywood at this point values what the CCP thinks more than American citizens.

And so media companies will not question any data coming from China, I expect, or if they do, they'll be the absolute last to do so, holding out until literally everybody else is mocking them for going full Walter Duranty.  The WHO has apparently been similarly credulous of whatever the CCP tells them is the case.

So established news sources are suspect due to groupthink and a sort of soft capture by the CCP, and yet if you go outside established news sources you have to do ten times the skeptical work to fish out the few worthwhile sources from among the cranks and whackadoodles.

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2 hours ago, MacusFlash said:

I have a really uncommon question: what UNofficial news say in your countries? Do they confirm what governments and med institutions say or they are trying to say the situation is at least a bit worse?

So the news is doing a fairly good job of getting information out there but it's getting worse faster than they get the information and they're not getting everything. Hospitals are already in really bad shape and from what I'm being told, they're expecting a mass of staff to be infected. They're being ordered to work through it though unless the fever gets high because there's nothing else they can do.

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12 minutes ago, MetGreDKo said:

So the need is doing a fairly good job of getting information out there but it's getting worse faster than they get the information and they're not getting everything. Hospitals are already in really bad shape and from what I'm being told, they're expecting a mass of staff to be infected. They're being ordered to work through it though unless the fever gets high because there's nothing else they can do.

I guess the upside is, if you're an infected doctor or nurse working with infected patients, neither of you can infect the other.

Gonna suck when the fever gets bad, though.  I wonder if companies like Bayer, Excedrin, etc., have started increased production rates?

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21 minutes ago, MacusFlash said:

I have a really uncommon question: what UNofficial news say in your countries? Do they confirm what governments and med institutions say or they are trying to say the situation is at least a bit worse?

Here it seems the official media are supporting the public health messaging.  The odd slightly different angle and poke for "why not earlier" in this fast moving crisis is visible.  Not too much second guessing and blame spreading yet (but it will come).  Pretty easy to fact check.

The only thing that triggers me slightly are people asking questions about pets (can they transmit or catch the virus?).  I have pets and I get it; but top health officials and politicians don't need to answer shit questions like that.   

Not too much "local unofficial" background noise in my area; although they and social media are not on my Radar too much at the moment.

 

36 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

and yet if you go outside established news sources you have to do ten times the skeptical work to fish out the few worthwhile sources from among the cranks and whackadoodles.

QFT

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9 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:



The only thing that triggers me slightly are people asking questions about pets (can they transmit or catch the virus?).  I have pets and I get it; but top health officials and politicians don't need to answer shit questions like that.   
 

Actually that's pretty important; pets are a possible vector.

However, IMO dogs aren't so much a risk so long as you keep them from other dogs.  They don't interact with other animals and humans as much as we do, so they aren't a big concern.  But I can certainly understand why the question is raised.

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10 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

Actually that's pretty important; pets are a possible vector.

However, IMO dogs aren't so much a risk so long as you keep them from other dogs.  They don't interact with other animals and humans as much as we do, so they aren't a big concern.  But I can certainly understand why the question is raised.

If pets were a reliable and dangerous vector; it would have been communicated back in January/February.

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13 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

If pets were a reliable and dangerous vector; it would have been communicated back in January/February.

I don't say that they're a significant contributor to cases, but since they are a possible vector due to being able to carry the virus, people are naturally going to ask questions.  To be honest, since they apparently show no signs of getting sick (it seems like a non-symptomatic carrier is the ideal vector) they could in principle be a serious vector, except that pets don't have the same rate and breadth of interaction with other people or even other animals.

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12 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

I guess the upside is, if you're an infected doctor or nurse working with infected patients, neither of you can infect the other.

Gonna suck when the fever gets bad, though.  I wonder if companies like Bayer, Excedrin, etc., have started increased production rates?

The problem is its hitting the health care system already. The hospital my sister works at isn't testing employees at the moment. They're completely out of masks being told to reuse them and using ones that don't even help. The ER is going to other departments for masks when they have 100 patients waiting to be seen and the National Guard is out front helping as best they can. The capacity of our health care system is going to start to decline severely now.

Meanwhile 911 calls related to Corona have quadrupled in 8 or 9 days and I expect in another two or so days will be over 1,000 daily. 

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12 minutes ago, MetGreDKo said:

The problem is its hitting the health care system already. The hospital my sister works at isn't testing employees at the moment. They're completely out of masks being told to reuse them and using ones that don't even help. The ER is going to other departments for masks when they have 100 patients waiting to be seen and the National Guard is out front helping as best they can. The capacity of our health care system is going to start to decline severely now.

Meanwhile 911 calls related to Corona have quadrupled in 8 or 9 days and I expect in another two or so days will be over 1,000 daily. 

New York I guess?

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