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Supertest Med Nerf (430U and Progetto)

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Progetto 65 is pretty strong, but surely there are better things to nerf about it than dispersion numbers. Obj 430U is now pennable in the weakspots *most* of the time with t10 gold ammo, rather than just some of the time. GG wargaming Very cool

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I'd probably just nerf the intraclip on these tanks if I want to reduce mag dumping. Would make you hesitate to go all in on someone if it will take you a long time to do so. 2.5 for progetto and 3.5 for standard b seems excessive but it would get the job done

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So I did a short Reddit browse and now the Progetto nerf makes a lot more sense. Apparently 25% of all tier 10 tanks played are Progettos on the RU server. In my own NA server experience I almost never see more than one of the things, but if it is 25% of the total number of tier 10 tanks played then holy shit WG does need to do something.  As for the 430U nerfs it still reeks of the same sort of "nerf" they gave the Type 5 when they made one of the hatches on the front only 270 mm thick. I think a bit more of a hit to the 430U would be a good idea, but I'm absolutely baffled by the Progetto stats on the RU server and I have no idea how to go about fixing it without massive nerfs to the vehicle. I think Wargaming is in the same boat in that regard. 

On the other hand the whole situation is somewhat reminiscent of previous metas like the 268v4 and Type 5 metas. I wonder if similar numbers have appeared in the past? Were there any other tanks that just flooded the MM like the Progetto does on the RU server? 

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So they try to nerf the Obj430U and 430 once again. Last time they did not nerf it, cause it would not adress the problem. (Or the RU Community cried to much, who knows).
And to be honest I don´t like this kind of nerfs. The cuppola nerf is a joke and it clearly shows how retarded the meta became in T10. ~270mm is now a weakspot. Great WG. If this does not show you why people leave the game I don´t know.

Anyway. Let´s compare some of the nerfs to the old nerfs, which were canceled. DPM was not changed this time. Why? Such a good armored tank can lose some dpm. It will lose some battle effectiveness but it does not make it horrible to play. Unlike all these gunhandling nerfs. Gun handling nerfs only make tanks horrible to play but it will still be horrible to play against them. 
And what really annoys me is that, you can´t see this changes ingame. All those stats are hidden. Last time they at least nerfed the basic aim time. Not this time. The aim time will be nerfed the same, but now you can´t see why ingame. 

The problem of this tank is the armor. Give it better weakspots an not this 270mm crap. Make the the spaced armor on the side thinner. That storage boxes have 30mm of armor is stupid anyway. (looking at you IS7

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Yeah, looks pretty stupid. 270mm 'weak-spot' which is a small hatch on a small turret is still a big FU to most tanks, especially tier 8s will still be rudely manhandled by a 430U. Surprised the 430 is getting nerfed, it's armour is nowhere near as strong in the tier and it already can't engage many heavies front-on due to poor gold pen (unlike the 430U), but it is pretty strong in my opinion.

I've actually never taken the Prog out even though I've had it unlocked for so long, although that's partly because the Standard B is ridiculously good. Not OP in my opinion, but definitely one of the best mediums in the tier. That said, if the numbers on the RU server is actually real, that's a problem of some kind so I understand the desire to try and fix it, although nerf sounds pretty strange. As others have noted, simply nerf the intra-clip and you'll hurt it's burst damage considerably.

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With the rammer removal the dpm drops to lower than a bat chat 

17 hours ago, echo9835 said:

So I did a short Reddit browse and now the Progetto nerf makes a lot more sense. Apparently 25% of all tier 10 tanks played are Progettos on the RU server. In my own NA server experience I almost never see more than one of the things, but if it is 25% of the total number of tier 10 tanks played then holy shit WG does need to do something.  As for the 430U nerfs it still reeks of the same sort of "nerf" they gave the Type 5 when they made one of the hatches on the front only 270 mm thick. I think a bit more of a hit to the 430U would be a good idea, but I'm absolutely baffled by the Progetto stats on the RU server and I have no idea how to go about fixing it without massive nerfs to the vehicle. I think Wargaming is in the same boat in that regard. 

On the other hand the whole situation is somewhat reminiscent of previous metas like the 268v4 and Type 5 metas. I wonder if similar numbers have appeared in the past? Were there any other tanks that just flooded the MM like the Progetto does on the RU server? 

If this is the reason WG is retarded

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7 hours ago, Balthazars said:

Yeah, looks pretty stupid. 270mm 'weak-spot' which is a small hatch on a small turret is still a big FU to most tanks, especially tier 8s will still be rudely manhandled by a 430U. Surprised the 430 is getting nerfed, it's armour is nowhere near as strong in the tier and it already can't engage many heavies front-on due to poor gold pen (unlike the 430U), but it is pretty strong in my opinion.

I've actually never taken the Prog out even though I've had it unlocked for so long, although that's partly because the Standard B is ridiculously good. Not OP in my opinion, but definitely one of the best mediums in the tier. That said, if the numbers on the RU server is actually real, that's a problem of some kind so I understand the desire to try and fix it, although nerf sounds pretty strange. As others have noted, simply nerf the intra-clip and you'll hurt it's burst damage considerably.

From my point of view, the thing that annoys me the most about engaging an italian autoloader is their uncanny ability to even autoload-snipe with too much accuracy, compared to pretty much everyone else's autoloader. I mean, compare what the italian meds do with the french autoloading TDs for example. Or french autoloaders at all or any autoloader (T69, T54E1, T57). Sniping while basically firing at full RPM with any of them isn't exactly something you do at medium to long ranges. Usually, if you exploit your clip, you are going to dunk at least half the shots into the sky or the ground, so you either go full speed firing or aim in for a while and thus negate the primary advantage of the magazine. The italy meds can go full unload speed and still hit reliably even at longest ranges, which is a tremendous advantage.

And it seems, as if that is the primary criticism that WG is recieving there. Look at those stats. They are changed to be similiar to what regular autoloaders present, despite still being slightly better due to not having the problem of having to fully reload their magazine before being able to fire again.

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14 hours ago, hall0 said:

Gun handling nerfs only make tanks horrible to play but it will still be horrible to play against them. 

THIS.  In a decade WG has never figured out that you can nerf/buff something without negatively adjusting its 'fun meter'.  Gun handling is already RNG cancer, adding more RNG without addressing the real problem (the fact that its better armored than most heavies with better camo than a BC) is just taking away fun without fixing anything.

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9 hours ago, nabucodonsor said:

If this is the reason WG is retarded

I don't disagree that the nerf itself is a bad idea in its current iteration, but the reasoning behind it is quite sound. On the most populated server 25% of the tanks in tier 10 match making are progetto's, and if you ad in the 430U it goes up to 42%. I wouldn't be surprised to see games of just those two tanks. That is a serious problem for WG that they have a strong incentive to fix. I think the fix in question is pretty dumb, but they are trying to fix an actual problem. Admittedly the problem isn't a problem for us, and the solution is a problem for us, but we're actually seeing WG try to fix a problem. They haven't tried to fix a problem since patch 9.18 gave us 3-5-7. I don't even know when they successfully fixed a problem last. 

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On 5/25/2020 at 5:27 PM, nabucodonsor said:

With the rammer removal the dpm drops to lower than a bat chat 

If this is the reason WG is retarded

They are phrasing it badly but the tank is overperforming + it's too popular. Also a tank being too popular is a good reason to nerf it since it forces the meta to change. So not retarded at all. As much as I like to shit on WG this is a good move on their part.

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2 hours ago, hazzgar said:

A better question is - IF 430U and Progetto get nerfed which tanks will be left as t10 meta tanks? 279E, Donq and that's it? Or add 277 to it?

For CW:

279(e), Chieftain, 907, 277/260, Leopard I, CGC, EBR 105.

430U was kind of meta for a bit, but hasn't been for a while. Progetto is used every once in a while on a few maps but has never been main meta.

 

If you're talking about pubs, then there are a lot more tanks that are meta.

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430U filled a niche role in CW, now its role will just be replaced be 907s. Prog was never meta because the Leo is better at the role you would use it in.

 

In pubs, 430U will still be a bitch to face but now it will be a bit shitty to play as well.

Prog will literally be pointless for better players but shitters will still be able to magdump you for 1400.

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9 hours ago, churchill50 said:

For CW:

279(e), Chieftain, 907, 277/260, Leopard I, CGC, EBR 105.

430U was kind of meta for a bit, but hasn't been for a while. Progetto is used every once in a while on a few maps but has never been main meta.

 

If you're talking about pubs, then there are a lot more tanks that are meta.

Pubs not CW. 

What tanks are meta? EBR but those are annoying as fuck to play in  (since it's 11k combined, then 5 battles with 2.5-3.5k then 10k and repeat). Sconq is no longer pub meta. 60TP is kinda becoming meta but realistically only for purples and poles. 

4 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

.

Prog will literally be pointless for better players but shitters will still be able to magdump you for 1400.

In terms of being dangerous because a shitter yolo's you or catches you in the open prog was the least problematic really. Only the Kran and Skoda had smaller total burts and they unloaded faster. 

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I believe nerfing Progetto 65 was a mistake.

It was the only tank with no armor that was competitive. Some might say, okay, Leo1 is there, but let's be honest, Leo1 is way worse.

If Spaghetti 65 gets nerfed, there won't be paper tanks that are competitive anymore.

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1 hour ago, igorCRO said:

I believe nerfing Progetto 65 was a mistake.

It was the only tank with no armor that was competitive. Some might say, okay, Leo1 is there, but let's be honest, Leo1 is way worse.

If Spaghetti 65 gets nerfed, there won't be paper tanks that are competitive anymore.

WG doesn't want paper tanks to be competitive because to make paper tanks competitive they need to either be awesome at vision games or have great firepower. Both really REALLY frustrate pubbies. Especially RU pubbies who seem to have huge problems with vision play. 

 

Also I don't think it's a good way to think about balance - ie. How many competitive tanks there are of a given type and if there aren't many don't nerf what's OP. Using that logic we can have one FV4005 with an autoloader ;)

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I hate the armor of the Progetto 65. It has such a nasty ufp which bounces AP shells thanks to the autobounce angle. This trolled me way too many times. Nerf this instead of gun handling. 

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19 hours ago, hazzgar said:

 

In terms of being dangerous because a shitter yolo's you or catches you in the open prog was the least problematic really. Only the Kran and Skoda had smaller total burts and they unloaded faster. 

I never did say it was dangerous. Honestly though, the prog only really needs a 3s intraclip if they wanted to tone down its effectiveness. 

13 hours ago, igorCRO said:

I believe nerfing Progetto 65 was a mistake.

It was the only tank with no armor that was competitive. Some might say, okay, Leo1 is there, but let's be honest, Leo1 is way worse.

If Spaghetti 65 gets nerfed, there won't be paper tanks that are competitive anymore.

Not sure how the Leo1 isnt competitive but okay. I mean, with the UFP of the prog, you could almost argue the STB-1 is a paper tank and that thing is fucking great if you aren't me and get penned by arty on the move every 5 games. 

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