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Equipment 2.0 Builds

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2 hours ago, Deus__Ex__Machina said:

spall liner has pretty much always been useless for the reasons Rexxie listed

even with its buffs i dont think its worth it over hardening, specially on Super heavies which benefit more from the HP buff and often people over look the track HP increase and repair time bonuses that come with hardening. The track hp buff on an E100 for ex. makes it so it takes 2-3 shots to track depending on the caliber of gun, i had a 907 try and track me to keep me from advancing, it took him 3 consecutive shots to my left track to finally pop it off.  :serb:

I agree, I think the repair speed and track HP bonus on hardening is what makes it stand out more than just the HP buff, not just on superheavies, but also heavy assault tank destroyers like the JPE100, 268v4, the Chinese tier 9 etc. because it can make it a lot harder for the opposition to lock you in place and prevent you from getting that big nasty gun on target. Hardening to me seems one of the best new pieces of equipment, quite a lot of tanks I think can get benefit out of it.

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Update: Overlord_Prime did an in-depth analysis on Equipment 2.0 setups, some big finds here is that eGLD + Vstab edges over IRM + VStab in terms of time to aim, but overall IRM + VStab still edges it out in terms of bloom size. Other tidbits are how camo directly affects VR and how camo equipment affects this

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Really good info there, hoping we can do some in-game testing soon to verify the implementation of stuff like IAU and Grousers.

Couple takeaways I got from that is that GLD isn't more effective with higher aimtime, just higher bloom. That makes it significantly more efficient on TDs than I thought. It also means it has more anti-synergy with VStab than I expected, which again, is fine for TDs.

Also, if the Grouser implementation is simply a terrain resistance modifier as we think, it's much stronger than we have been giving it credit for. The traverse speed bonus alone is ~+25%, which is huge & very effective on tanks that rely on their traverse to protect themselves.

Lastly CVS is completely busted and is almost always better than optics with any vehicle that could take it.

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Yeah I’ve been mounting CVS like crazy after I read OP’s analysis some weeks ago, and it blows open maps like Prok or Muri and just renders the Fish Bay bush lines invisible

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On 8/17/2020 at 1:49 PM, sr360 said:

Yeah I’ve been mounting CVS like crazy after I read OP’s analysis some weeks ago, and it blows open maps like Prok or Muri and just renders the Fish Bay bush lines invisible

gib me more gameplay of LT's with CVS, 

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3 hours ago, Deus__Ex__Machina said:

gib me more gameplay of LT's with CVS, 

I can upload replays if you want. Don't have the patience to youtube them all. I did put up a 432 and a GSOR game, both with CVS.

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Saw a post regarding grouser effectiveness on Reddit that mentioned calculating (Top Speed x Ground Resistance) and comparing it to the ratio of HP/Ton. No idea on how practical the idea is yet, but here's the calculation from my garage using soft terrain if it will save any time finding numbers. (Values taken from tanksgg.)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SqYJQ_jfLbPnZDRWjLj8p2FuQe6hlRObgA2exFD9eWo/edit

 

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Big question for me is turbo charger vs. grousers because I pretty much guarantee differing soft stats will determine which is better on a tank by tank basis, but the formula given for acceleration was just giving me gibberish results. WG has to use some overly complex, counter-intuitive formula for everything in the game.

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13 hours ago, Jesse_the_Scout said:

Big question for me is turbo charger vs. grousers because I pretty much guarantee differing soft stats will determine which is better on a tank by tank basis, but the formula given for acceleration was just giving me gibberish results. WG has to use some overly complex, counter-intuitive formula for everything in the game.

Turbo for slower tanks cause more power = faster acceleration(cause with grousers slower tanks, with less HP/ton, on soft ground would be a bit more nimble but still accelerate slower than w/o turbo), grousers for already fast tanks, with more HP/ton,  to make most of acceleration on soft ground. But this is my logic, and i didnt tested it.

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9 hours ago, RedwoodOriginal said:

Turbo for slower tanks cause more power = faster acceleration(cause with grousers slower tanks, with less HP/ton, on soft ground would be a bit more nimble but still accelerate slower than w/o turbo), grousers for already fast tanks, with more HP/ton,  to make most of acceleration on soft ground. But this is my logic, and i didnt tested it.

I think that's an oversimplification. Turbo helps tanks that are hardcapped but reach their top speed easily (M48A5, FV4202, Centurions), where they now cruise 5 k/h faster. Slow, heavy tanks with bad HP/T only get a small HP boost and even smaller hp/t boost. The Super Persh, for example, has terrible hp/t and struggles to reach its top speed, and still struggles just as much with turbo.

Certain quick tanks which are JUST too slow to do what you need them to do actually do great with turbo. The T92 becomes fast enough to actually be an LT, the GSOR behaves like a pocket EBR, and the Leopards basically put the CS-63 to shame... unless the CS-63 mounts turbo in which case it almost keeps pace with EBRs...

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6 hours ago, sr360 said:

I think that's an oversimplification. Turbo helps tanks that are hardcapped but reach their top speed easily (M48A5, FV4202, Centurions), where they now cruise 5 k/h faster. Slow, heavy tanks with bad HP/T only get a small HP boost and even smaller hp/t boost. The Super Persh, for example, has terrible hp/t and struggles to reach its top speed, and still struggles just as much with turbo.

Certain quick tanks which are JUST too slow to do what you need them to do actually do great with turbo. The T92 becomes fast enough to actually be an LT, the GSOR behaves like a pocket EBR, and the Leopards basically put the CS-63 to shame... unless the CS-63 mounts turbo in which case it almost keeps pace with EBRs...

It is oversimplification. Basically turbo > grousers?, or to make most of it use both for max agility and speed. I sold my sPersh so i cant test how it would behave with grousers vs. turbo, but i can find something simmilar in my garage.

 

On 8/21/2020 at 1:01 AM, Necrophore said:

Saw a post regarding grouser effectiveness on Reddit that mentioned calculating (Top Speed x Ground Resistance) and comparing it to the ratio of HP/Ton. No idea on how practical the idea is yet, but here's the calculation from my garage using soft terrain if it will save any time finding numbers. (Values taken from tanksgg.)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SqYJQ_jfLbPnZDRWjLj8p2FuQe6hlRObgA2exFD9eWo/edit

 

Thanks for spreadsheet.

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I'm talking specifically about the effect on acceleration. Increasing HP/ton and reducing ground resistance both increase it, but the wild variance means there's likely differences based on the tank. For instance, Japanese tanks often have modest HP/ton and low ground resist. In that case I suspect increasing HP/ton would be better. In contrast, something like the IS-7 has decent HP/ton but atrocious ground resistances. I suspect in that case grousers would give you more bang for your buck.

But without being able to decode the formulas I can only speculate. In any case whether you need increased max speed or better turn speed is still probably the deciding factor.

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On Is7 grousers would be waste of slot IMO. IRM and Turbo should get you simmilar or better effect than grousers, and for third slot Vents + food + driver skills/BIA if maximazing mobility + with IRM you still have good bloom.

But yeah, without decoding formula, only thing left is live testing.

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4 hours ago, Jesse_the_Scout said:

I'm talking specifically about the effect on acceleration. Increasing HP/ton and reducing ground resistance both increase it, but the wild variance means there's likely differences based on the tank. For instance, Japanese tanks often have modest HP/ton and low ground resist. In that case I suspect increasing HP/ton would be better. In contrast, something like the IS-7 has decent HP/ton but atrocious ground resistances. I suspect in that case grousers would give you more bang for your buck.

But without being able to decode the formulas I can only speculate. In any case whether you need increased max speed or better turn speed is still probably the deciding factor.

Grousers increase base rotation speed as well, yielding a total of irrc 25% to chassis rotation speed. 

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My main holdup with Grousers is that it drastically increases your traverse speed without reducing track bloom, so you'll really notice the bloom hit.

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Ask and ye shall receive
 

11 hours ago, Jesse_the_Scout said:

But without being able to decode the formulas I can only speculate. In any case whether you need increased max speed or better turn speed is still probably the deciding factor.

8 hours ago, RedwoodOriginal said:

On Is7 grousers would be waste of slot IMO. IRM and Turbo should get you simmilar or better effect than grousers, and for third slot Vents + food + driver skills/BIA if maximazing mobility + with IRM you still have good bloom.

But yeah, without decoding formula, only thing left is live testing.

Rh/Rx is boosted to the grousers,
Ee/Es is boosted by turbo
Tn is helped by IRM and Grousers

Math sheets:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BRY_AY4LEdD2K_QTKNXcV4LSGvhBO9aWeFkY6GFMYWk/edit#gid=0

TRx = (Ee/Es) x Tn x (Rh/Rx) x (Ws/We) x Pc

TRx = Real traverse speed (deg/s)
Ee = Elite engine horsepower (HP)
Es = Stock engine horsepower (HP)
Tn = Nominal traverse of a tank, including bonus from clutch breaking, drivers' skill and consumables (deg/s)
Rh = Tank's terrain resistance on hard terrain, including bonuses from Ventilation, BiA, Off Road Driving, Consumables
Rx = Tank's terrain resistance for terrain one is calculating traverse for, including all the bonuses
Ws = Tank's weight with stock modules (kg)
We = Tank's weight with used modules (kg)
Pc = Pivot coefficient, 1 for non-pivot tanks, 0,95 for pivot tanks

Turbos boost (elite) engine power and also turret and traverse speeds since they are derivatives of engine power. also works for top speed obviously, siege mode too 
 

7 hours ago, Rexxie said:

My main holdup with Grousers is that it drastically increases your traverse speed without reducing track bloom, so you'll really notice the bloom hit.

yeah it increases your Deg/s hull bloom. so you almost have to run IRM with it and at that point, just IRM+turbo is flat better for boosted turn rate

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The tank where I'd take Grousers over Turbo the most likely are, the French single-shot heavies. They have decent power/ton, but are just flat out fucked due to their ground-resistances.

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@Deus__Ex__Machina
Svitman's math from that video: (This copy is mine though)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qONen69AQx1Pu6cJl_9NKEZNcmk108smIroSnfzkLc4/edit#gid=0

if you want svitmans actual doc, PM me
the chart:


Setup / Camo 0.00 5.00 10.00 15.00 20.00 25.00 30.00 35.00 40.00 45.00
basic 400.00 382.50 365.00 347.50 330.00 312.50 295.00 277.50 260.00 242.50
optics 440.00 420.50 401.00 381.50 362.00 342.50 323.00 303.50 284.00 264.50
vents 408.80 390.86 372.92 354.98 337.04 319.10 301.16 283.22 265.28 247.34
binos 500.00 477.50 455.00 432.50 410.00 387.50 365.00 342.50 320.00 297.50
cvs 400.00 384.25 368.50 352.75 337.00 321.25 305.50 289.75 274.00 258.25
optics + vents 449.68 429.70 409.71 389.73 369.74 349.76 329.78 309.79 289.81 269.82
optics + cvs 440.00 422.45 404.90 387.35 369.80 352.25 334.70 317.15 299.60 282.05
max range 445.00 445.00 445.00 445.00 445.00 445.00 445.00 445.00 445.00 445.00


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my gut feeling says grousers is better for mobility as turbo, as long as your dont reach top speed, pure because turbo also buffs top speed and reverse speed, that would make grousers useless, so tanks with high resistance, that dont really reach top speed most of the time would benefit the most (and as said above, this will fuck your bloom, so it works best (i guess) on a tank like Panther 88? or perhaps IS3?

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On 8/22/2020 at 12:59 PM, Deus__Ex__Machina said:
 

That was a really useful video. For those who didn't watch (and bearing in mind these set-ups are for competitive, not randoms - although they discuss random set-ups in the video). Bond/bounty equipment where you have it:

0:38 - Leopard - improved aiming, rammer, vents
4:02 - Object 907 - v-stab, vents, rammer
5:49 - Chieftain - v-stab, vents, rammer
10:49 - Object 279(e) - v-stab, rammer, improved configuration
19:05 - Object 260 - v-stab, vents, rammer
20:10 - Object 277 - v-stab, vents, rammer
21:16 - EBR 105 - lots of options, but settle on rammer, vents, optics
30:15 - Objet 268v.4 - again, they discuss lots of options but end up with improved rotation, vents, rammer
38:18 - T110E4 - improved rotation, vents, rammer
42:00 - AMX 50B - hardening, vents, v-stab
45:15 - Kranvagn - improved rotation, vents, v-stab
47:35 - STB-1 - v-stab, vents, rammer
50:37 - TVP 50/51 - turbo, vents, v-stab
54:34 - Strv 103B - camo net, rammer, vents
57:41 - Conqueror GC - rammer, vents, gld
1:01:12 - CS-63 - rammer, vents, v-stab
1:03:01 - 60TP - hardening, rammer, v-stab
1:08:21 - T-100 LT - binocs, vents, optics (again, worth stressing this is competitive and not random set-up)
1:18:11 - Explanation on Commander Vision System
1:28:45 - BatChat 25t - hardening, vents, v-stab
1:35:15 - Insights on tier 8 tanks starting with Progetto 46
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Thinking a bit on how skills affect the tank, wouldn't the exhaust system (moving camo net) be better than optics in some tanks like the Prog / Leopard? If you run with food and vents, optics feel redundant either way, as they improve vision but not camo (or at least not by a lot, IF the crew is trained for it)

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5 hours ago, Snoregasm2 said:

That was a really useful video. For those who didn't watch (and bearing in mind these set-ups are for competitive, not randoms - although they discuss random set-ups in the video). Bond/bounty equipment where you have it:

0:38 - Leopard - improved aiming, rammer, vents
4:02 - Object 907 - v-stab, vents, rammer
5:49 - Chieftain - v-stab, vents, rammer
10:49 - Object 279(e) - v-stab, rammer, improved configuration
19:05 - Object 260 - v-stab, vents, rammer
20:10 - Object 277 - v-stab, vents, rammer
21:16 - EBR 105 - lots of options, but settle on rammer, vents, optics
30:15 - Objet 268v.4 - again, they discuss lots of options but end up with improved rotation, vents, rammer
38:18 - T110E4 - improved rotation, vents, rammer
42:00 - AMX 50B - hardening, vents, v-stab
45:15 - Kranvagn - improved rotation, vents, v-stab
47:35 - STB-1 - v-stab, vents, rammer
50:37 - TVP 50/51 - turbo, vents, v-stab
54:34 - Strv 103B - camo net, rammer, vents
57:41 - Conqueror GC - rammer, vents, gld
1:01:12 - CS-63 - rammer, vents, v-stab
1:03:01 - 60TP - hardening, rammer, v-stab
1:08:21 - T-100 LT - binocs, vents, optics (again, worth stressing this is competitive and not random set-up)
1:18:11 - Explanation on Commander Vision System
1:28:45 - BatChat 25t - hardening, vents, v-stab
1:35:15 - Insights on tier 8 tanks starting with Progetto 46

It's an interesting video, but I disagree a lot on a number of those, at least for randoms. Here's my take, recognizing that I'm not optimized for competitive, and that the NA meta is different. Also, because of Daki using a lot of bond equipment he ignores the bonus slot to a great degree.

Leo1: set up as pure sniper, essentially almost as a TD, losing a lot on the ability to peek-shoot. I prefer turbo/VS/rammer. The Leo's 0.12 bloom is just above my cutoff for dropping VS, and turbo boosts the relocation ability of the tank.

907: I'd go turbo, VS, rammer, or vents/VS/rammer. The bloom is right on the edge and it usually fights at closer ranges.

Chieftain is fine. Vents needs to be in slot 1

279 is fine too, with mod config in slot 1

260 is fine, vents in slot 1

277 same, vents in slot 1

EBR 105 oof. The CVS is a HUGE boost to EBRs with the limited VR of the EBR now getting boosted by ~12.5% and even more for bushed tanks. I prefer CVS/optics/vents

268v4: lots of options, but putting IRM/TURBO/rammer gives it the ability to cruise like a medium and back out faster. 

E4 is fine. IRM in slot 1

STB-1 is fine, vents in slot 1. Alternatively, turbo in slot 1

TVP I've toodled around with but not tested much yet. I'm currently favoring IRM/VS/vents or IRM/VS/optics, double stacking gun handling equipment to land shots.

103B is fine, rammer in slot 1

CGC is fine, GLD in slot 1

CS-63 is interesting. Putting a turbo on it actually is a HUGE boost, so currently I favor turbo/VS/rammer

60TP is fine

T-100LT for randoms I run CVS/optics/vents or CVS/optics/turbo

Batchat IRM/VS/optics to double stack gun handling

I've been experimenting very extensively - having every tier 10 and 65m credits means I can do that! So far I've only spent 40m on equipment :D. The fun thing with eq2.0 is how many different builds are available. It is true, though, than the presence of Bond equipment does mean that the bigger boost they provide makes people skip a look at the new equipment.

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1 hour ago, sr360 said:

It's an interesting video, but I disagree a lot on a number of those, at least for randoms. Here's my take, recognizing that I'm not optimized for competitive, and that the NA meta is different. Also, because of Daki using a lot of bond equipment he ignores the bonus slot to a great degree.

Leo1: set up as pure sniper, essentially almost as a TD, losing a lot on the ability to peek-shoot. I prefer turbo/VS/rammer. The Leo's 0.12 bloom is just above my cutoff for dropping VS, and turbo boosts the relocation ability of the tank.

907: I'd go turbo, VS, rammer, or vents/VS/rammer. The bloom is right on the edge and it usually fights at closer ranges.

Chieftain is fine. Vents needs to be in slot 1

279 is fine too, with mod config in slot 1

260 is fine, vents in slot 1

277 same, vents in slot 1

EBR 105 oof. The CVS is a HUGE boost to EBRs with the limited VR of the EBR now getting boosted by ~12.5% and even more for bushed tanks. I prefer CVS/optics/vents

268v4: lots of options, but putting IRM/TURBO/rammer gives it the ability to cruise like a medium and back out faster. 

E4 is fine. IRM in slot 1

STB-1 is fine, vents in slot 1. Alternatively, turbo in slot 1

TVP I've toodled around with but not tested much yet. I'm currently favoring IRM/VS/vents or IRM/VS/optics, double stacking gun handling equipment to land shots.

103B is fine, rammer in slot 1

CGC is fine, GLD in slot 1

CS-63 is interesting. Putting a turbo on it actually is a HUGE boost, so currently I favor turbo/VS/rammer

60TP is fine

T-100LT for randoms I run CVS/optics/vents or CVS/optics/turbo

Batchat IRM/VS/optics to double stack gun handling

I've been experimenting very extensively - having every tier 10 and 65m credits means I can do that! So far I've only spent 40m on equipment :D. The fun thing with eq2.0 is how many different builds are available. It is true, though, than the presence of Bond equipment does mean that the bigger boost they provide makes people skip a look at the new equipment.

I'd agree with a lot of that. To be fair to Daki, he deliberated over a lot of choices and often listed alternatives you have above, before explaining why he didn't pick it in the end. He noted that some stuff would be flat out better for randoms in a way that it wouldn't for competitive, with a lot of that being vision modules.

Out of interest, what would you put on the Renegade? It's terrain resistances are so horrific that it genuinely seems to be a candidate for grousers? Compared against other tanks I'm thinking of playing for the PL med marathon:

Xd5cwuP.png

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3 hours ago, Snoregasm2 said:

I'd agree with a lot of that. To be fair to Daki, he deliberated over a lot of choices and often listed alternatives you have above, before explaining why he didn't pick it in the end. He noted that some stuff would be flat out better for randoms in a way that it wouldn't for competitive, with a lot of that being vision modules.

Out of interest, what would you put on the Renegade? It's terrain resistances are so horrific that it genuinely seems to be a candidate for grousers? Compared against other tanks I'm thinking of playing for the PL med marathon:

Xd5cwuP.png

I don't have a Renegade myself, but yes, turbo is a waste on that tank. A friend of mine tried turbo and with those terrain resistances, there really isn't any noticeable mobility improvement. 0.14/0.10 means it sits right where I'd think of dropping VS, but the same friend felt that without VS he wasn't feeling it, so he went back to a Vents/Rammer/VS setup. I suppose you could drop Vents for grousers, but you do give up the 1% slot bonus. 

For the 1951 I use vents/IRM/VS. I've been trying to stack handling equipment on autoloaders since they often balance autoloaders with poor bloom. Defender I'm running vents/rammer/VS, though I'm pondering hardening. 703v2 I actually run vents/VS/turbo! Those terrain resistances means you actually get a speed boost. Prog I run Turbo/VS/Optics. Skorp I don't have, but Crab runs IRM/Turbo/Rammer. I run IRM/Turbo/IAU on the 130PM.

That's my current setup, experimentation is ongoing!

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