CS 52 LIS (Fox)

[Wanderjar 298]

Well, the final changes for the Polish premium ST. Its characteristics are a little bit up and set the price in gold. This means that LIS is now ready for release and you can get it for the autumn marathon 2020. Changes for CS-52 LIS ( Poland, CT-8, prem):
• Tank name: from CS-52 to CS-52 LIS
• The price of the tank in gold: from 100 to 6.700
• The elevation angles: from -6 to -7 • Engine power: from 620 to 720
• Power density: from 16.95 to 19.68
• Dispersion on movement (max.): From 0.16 (8.00 ) by 0.14 (7.00)
• Dispersion on hull traverse (max.): from 0.16 (6.68) to 0.14 (5.84)
• Spread on turret traverse (max.): from 0.1 (4.48) to 0.08 (3.59)

https://vk.com/wotclue?w=wall-70226354_3315739

it's a slightly worse T44-100. nice.
Cross post from the marathon thread.

[hall0 1,095]

What do the numbers in the brackets mean? 

[Wanderjar 298]

the maximum allowed values/deflections. usually impossible to hit those unless you are doing reverse doughnuts in lakeville valley at max speed while trying to autolock an EBR circling you. 

[lavawing 498]

On 8/25/2020 at 10:29 PM, Wanderjar said:

Well, the final changes for the Polish premium ST. Its characteristics are a little bit up and set the price in gold. This means that LIS is now ready for release and you can get it for the autumn marathon 2020. Changes for CS-52 LIS ( Poland, CT-8, prem):
• Tank name: from CS-52 to CS-52 LIS
• The price of the tank in gold: from 100 to 6.700
• The elevation angles: from -6 to -7 • Engine power: from 620 to 720
• Power density: from 16.95 to 19.68
• Dispersion on movement (max.): From 0.16 (8.00 ) by 0.14 (7.00)
• Dispersion on hull traverse (max.): from 0.16 (6.68) to 0.14 (5.84)
• Spread on turret traverse (max.): from 0.1 (4.48) to 0.08 (3.59)

https://vk.com/wotclue?w=wall-70226354_3315739

it's a slightly worse T44-100. nice.
Cross post from the marathon thread.

This is how it looks when using 6 out of 7 degrees of gun depression, against IS-3 AP rounds. In case you were wondering, the mantlet is pretty meaty as well at ~210mm at its weakest, and goes up to the mid 400s. It will be stupidly good at poking - anything but the cheeks will be autobounce. To illustrate how strong this is here is the Renegade also using 6 degrees of gun depression: 



So yeah, I'm sceptical how this can possibly be balanced at tier 8, especially when it seems to have no downsides at the moment. With how it is as it is, I'd imagine you could just drive it to the medium corner and bully the shit out of those poor saps with 240 alpha. Even if you bump into something heavier it's not going to be the end of the world - 320 alpha and autobounce UFP say hi.

[Tupinambis 173]

It looks kind of like a weird T-44/Lansen C intergrade.

on one had, that sounds like it should be balanced, but on the other hand.... now that it has these buffs, it seems really idiotic how much better this thing is than the CS-53, which AFAIK itself isn't exactly regarded as a garbage tank.

 

This is especially stupid given that the CS-52 is a T-44 derived designed, and the CS-53 is a T-54 derived designed, so the 52 being outright better than the 53 is just outright bizarre.

[Deus__Ex__Machina 989]

1 hour ago, Tupinambis said:

It looks kind of like a weird T-44/Lansen C intergrade.

on one had, that sounds like it should be balanced, but on the other hand.... now that it has these buffs, it seems really idiotic how much better this thing is than the CS-53, which AFAIK itself isn't exactly regarded as a garbage tank.

 

This is especially stupid given that the CS-52 is a T-44 derived designed, and the CS-53 is a T-54 derived designed, so the 52 being outright better than the 53 is just outright bizarre.

the CS-53 mostly just has its gun going for it, which boils down to its alpha and its 290 gold pen

the rest of the tank is mostly mediocre/avg.

the mobility is ok, the dispersion/gun handling its meh, the armor is non-existent and it has no camo or VR. 

[Ezz 1,770]

53 gets very good camo, but yeah, very meh otherwise. At least wg are consistent in finding ways to make the prem better than the tree no matter how illogical it would be. It was like they released the tree before discovering the buffs the prem got.

[Deus__Ex__Machina 989]

i didnt realize that WG buffed this things engine to basically be the same as the 44-100

ive played a few games and so far it honestly just feels like a T-44-100 with 320 alpha. the mobility feels the same, the armor feels the same, basically everything. 

not to make it seem like its bad or anything, the 44-100 is already a very strong medium tank...and now WG has introduced a copy with more alpha....... 

also the gun handling buffs were overkill, it has unusually good handling for a 320 alpha med @ tier 8. and for whatever reason it gets near 1,600 m/s shell velocity on its gold rounds.

[Wanderjar 298]

one of the few tanks to get APCR-DS rounds actually

whats your setup on there Deus?

[Deus__Ex__Machina 989]

On 8/29/2020 at 3:21 AM, Wanderjar said:

one of the few tanks to get APCR-DS rounds actually

whats your setup on there Deus?

Improved Holy trinity of Vstab/Vents/Rammer

tho for most people who dont have a good crew/improved eq, you would want to drop Vents for optics because the tank is blind otherwise.

[Tupinambis 173]

So I got this thing at 40% off and its like a really bad, dumpy 2012 era tier 9 medium.... at tier 8. Its really pleasant to play; like a slower Lansen C but better handling and can actually take a hit.

[lavawing 498]

14 hours ago, Tupinambis said:

So I got this thing at 40% off and its like a really bad, dumpy 2012 era tier 9 medium.... at tier 8. Its really pleasant to play; like a slower Lansen C but better handling and can actually take a hit.

Isn't that just a Renegade? 

In all seriousness, the tank doesn't feel OP to fight against - unless they're going full APCR in which case as you say it feels like you're fighting a tier 9.

Was dusting off my E 50 when I got into a gunnery duel with a CS-52.  Not expecting it to put up a fight, but it turned out to be pretty even. 

[Wanderjar 298]

i went with Rammer/vstab optics cuz this thing is blind AF. and I do have a decent crew in it (3+ skill) might be worth vents just for the better reload. the gun is pretty zippy

[Rexxie 10,788]

Tank feels insane in the couple games I've played in it. It really does feel like WG pulled a T9 med out of 2012; the LIS's gun is incredible at T8 and it doesn't pay for it in anything. Armor, mobility, accuracy, handling, gundep, camo. It's all there. Give it 30 pen & 1700 HP and it would have fit right in with the T-54, Patton, and E-50 back in the day.

...too bad I don't want to even see the login screen after having ground this tank down to 7 dollars.

Also what is with that hill climbing ability...? Thing cruises up hills like they're not even there.

[sr360 4,988]

On 9/4/2020 at 3:35 AM, Rexxie said:

Tank feels insane in the couple games I've played in it. It really does feel like WG pulled a T9 med out of 2012; the LIS's gun is incredible at T8 and it doesn't pay for it in anything. Armor, mobility, accuracy, handling, gundep, camo. It's all there. Give it 30 pen & 1700 HP and it would have fit right in with the T-54, Patton, and E-50 back in the day.

...too bad I don't want to even see the login screen after having ground this tank down to 7 dollars.

Also what is with that hill climbing ability...? Thing cruises up hills like they're not even there.

Would you, ahem, put turbo on it?

[ZXrage 1,318]

It is I, the man who writes guides on marathon tanks after playing a decent amount of games in them, and I am here to write up a first thoughts/review. I'm gonna change my ratings from 1-5 to 1-10 since it makes more sense than putting in a bunch of decimals.

Mobility:

It moves...okay? It's certainly not mediocre, but I also don't find it very exceptional. The Lansen and Bourrasque will beat it in beelining for a position, and it doesn't hovertrack around like a Progetto or T-44-100, but it's certainly good. About where I would put a semi-squishy medium tank in its tier.

7/10

Damaging capability:

This is the meat and bones of the tank: damage output. The 2k DPM combined with 320 alpha means you hit decently hard for almost any engagement in-tier, especially if fighting same-tier medium tanks. Outtrade peashooters, DPM boomsticks, very much like the Renegade in terms of how you want to engage people. 208 pen means you're not going to need APCR too much (especially when compared to the T 59 or T-44-100 with their meh 192 pen), but goddamn that APCR flies like hitscan and hits decently hard. Switch to APCR when fighting tier 9s and above, avoid higher tiered heavies if you can. Be aware of your shell count, though, since it doesn't carry a lot. The dispersion penalties aren't too bad when considering the gun it has, so you're not going to be paying a hefty price for mounting a big gun like the other boomstick mediums would. The okay aimtime and sluggish AP velocity is going to be your deathknell in long-range sniping. It can be a capable ridgeline fighter because of the -7 gdp and low profile, but you're certainly not going to take control of it like a TL-1, Progetto, or Lansen could.

390m VR is good, but you will need to run a VR-stacked crew if you want to get to the VR cap without running food. It's easier to get there than a T-44-100 since the Soviet high-tier mediums run SA on the commander but the premium has it on the loader.

8/10

Survivability:

The armor profile is surprisingly strong, but it's no Type 59. The turret is weaker-comparable to the T-44-100, since your turret face is butter to ~230 pen above, and it doesn't have the saving grace of the T-44-100 sloped cheeks for a troll bounce. You can safely ignore tier 7s and below trying to hit your turret face. Hull armor is also comparable to the T-44-100. 80 sloped at ~60deg, but using all of your gun depression means you can auto-ricochet some AP/CR if you're lucky. I still wouldn't rely on the hull armor to do that, though, so don't try playing for it.

The camouflage is also decent for a MT (~32 stationary/25 moving), but it's not as sneaky as a Bourrasque which can pocket light. It's a little worse but also comparable to a T-44-100 so if you know how to hide that thing then back up an extra 5-10m. 

6/10

How is it as a premium?

It doesn't have turbo mode so you can throw its relatability to the tier 10 right out the door. It shares its crew layout with the 9 and 10 so you can put those tanks' crews in this. From what I've gathered the Polish MT line isn't exceptional, but if you decide to pursue it the premium plays a lot like its tech-tree counterpart. The shells on this tank are surprisingly cheap, and compared to how hard they hit this could actually be a decent profit maker. Obviously if you want to spam hitscan APCR your profits will take a dip but it's certainly an option.

Should I buy it?

It's definitely a good tank, but in terms of marathon grinding you're really only getting your money's worth at 60% discount and above, which is part-and-parcel for your typical marathon tank. Weirdly enough, the most apt comparison I can make for this tank besides the CS-53 is the post-1.10 T32. The gun performs almost exactly the same (Some differences but the use case is the same) but you're trading the T32's superior armor layout and bait-spotting ability for more usable mobility, which has always been the T32's crippling weakness (besides the gun but they fixed it in 1.10). Since I love the T32 (and have it 3-marked) and I love medium gameplay, this is the perfect blend of both of them.

ZXScore™: 21/30

[Deus__Ex__Machina 989]

39 minutes ago, ZXrage said:

208 pen

this tank has 252 base pen  

change my mind 

[lavawing 498]

3 hours ago, ZXrage said:

It is I, the man who writes guides on marathon tanks after playing a decent amount of games in them, and I am here to write up a first thoughts/review. I'm gonna change my ratings from 1-5 to 1-10 since it makes more sense than putting in a bunch of decimals.

Mobility:

It moves...okay? It's certainly not mediocre, but I also don't find it very exceptional. The Lansen and Bourrasque will beat it in beelining for a position, and it doesn't hovertrack around like a Progetto or T-44-100, but it's certainly good. About where I would put a semi-squishy medium tank in its tier.

7/10

Damaging capability:

This is the meat and bones of the tank: damage output. The 2k DPM combined with 320 alpha means you hit decently hard for almost any engagement in-tier, especially if fighting same-tier medium tanks. Outtrade peashooters, DPM boomsticks, very much like the Renegade in terms of how you want to engage people. 208 pen means you're not going to need APCR too much (especially when compared to the T 59 or T-44-100 with their meh 192 pen), but goddamn that APCR flies like hitscan and hits decently hard. Switch to APCR when fighting tier 9s and above, avoid higher tiered heavies if you can. Be aware of your shell count, though, since it doesn't carry a lot. The dispersion penalties aren't too bad when considering the gun it has, so you're not going to be paying a hefty price for mounting a big gun like the other boomstick mediums would. The okay aimtime and sluggish AP velocity is going to be your deathknell in long-range sniping. It can be a capable ridgeline fighter because of the -7 gdp and low profile, but you're certainly not going to take control of it like a TL-1, Progetto, or Lansen could.

390m VR is good, but you will need to run a VR-stacked crew if you want to get to the VR cap without running food. It's easier to get there than a T-44-100 since the Soviet high-tier mediums run SA on the commander but the premium has it on the loader.

8/10

Survivability:

The armor profile is surprisingly strong, but it's no Type 59. The turret is weaker-comparable to the T-44-100, since your turret face is butter to ~230 pen above, and it doesn't have the saving grace of the T-44-100 sloped cheeks for a troll bounce. You can safely ignore tier 7s and below trying to hit your turret face. Hull armor is also comparable to the T-44-100. 80 sloped at ~60deg, but using all of your gun depression means you can auto-ricochet some AP/CR if you're lucky. I still wouldn't rely on the hull armor to do that, though, so don't try playing for it.

The camouflage is also decent for a MT (~32 stationary/25 moving), but it's not as sneaky as a Bourrasque which can pocket light. It's a little worse but also comparable to a T-44-100 so if you know how to hide that thing then back up an extra 5-10m. 

6/10

How is it as a premium?

It doesn't have turbo mode so you can throw its relatability to the tier 10 right out the door. It shares its crew layout with the 9 and 10 so you can put those tanks' crews in this. From what I've gathered the Polish MT line isn't exceptional, but if you decide to pursue it the premium plays a lot like its tech-tree counterpart. The shells on this tank are surprisingly cheap, and compared to how hard they hit this could actually be a decent profit maker. Obviously if you want to spam hitscan APCR your profits will take a dip but it's certainly an option.

Should I buy it?

It's definitely a good tank, but in terms of marathon grinding you're really only getting your money's worth at 60% discount and above, which is part-and-parcel for your typical marathon tank. Weirdly enough, the most apt comparison I can make for this tank besides the CS-53 is the post-1.10 T32. The gun performs almost exactly the same (Some differences but the use case is the same) but you're trading the T32's superior armor layout and bait-spotting ability for more usable mobility, which has always been the T32's crippling weakness (besides the gun but they fixed it in 1.10). Since I love the T32 (and have it 3-marked) and I love medium gameplay, this is the perfect blend of both of them.

ZXScore™: 21/30

I'd have given it 7.5 for mobility just for its ability to charge up hills.

AP has no place on this thing and I find it difficult to give it anything less than 9/10 in the firepower department. That said, it can't snap as well as a real tier 9, and the APCR loses a lot of pen over distance (exactly 30 pen over 500m) versus something like a Renegade which still has 240 pen at max draw distance. The gun is also somewhat derpier than the stats suggest despite having better bloom and base accuracy than, again, the Renegade. Cruise control is crucial if you want to snap anything. It also can't DPM trade its way through bad situations due to lower DPM and HP.

Survivability is easily a 7 to 7.5 depending on how you use it, but the micro is legitimately tricky. The UFP is abusable but you have to poke obliquely at a higher elevation than the guns that are on you so that the first thing they see is your UFP. It looks like a Warsaw Pact tank so even good players will get tricked into what looks like an easy shot into your hull. The mantlet is unreliable but the strong zones can stop Jagd-E100 HEAT while the weak bits will get buttered by IS-3 AP. On flat ground you can only overangle your hull and poke quickly, which is the only reason it's not higher. An added bonus about the armour is that you can't lolpen it with high tier gold unlike virtually every other tier 8 med.

In all I'd give it 23.5/30.

It doesn't feel T-44 ish to me at all since on that thing the gun is the weakest link, and you have to leverage all its other strengths to make the tank shine. Here you just pick a slight incline and APCR people into submission. But if people decide to rush you or you get into those fluid wolfpack fights the T-44-100 will have a much easier time due to it being the size of a midget and having the speed of a scout.

I had the most success playing it like a tier 8 E 50 that can't snapshot. It's OP as balls and with full APCR (the only way it should be played) this will make Frontlines even more cancer as you can say goodbye to crossing open ground without getting insta farmed.

That said, because it simply doesn't work with frugal loadouts (without food + APCR, you can't lol pen people with centre mass shots - which kills your ability to snap - which kills your armour because people can farm you in the turret), it's kind of shit as a premium. The P46 and Bourrasque (and the Renegade) will still be much better as credit earners because they don't depend on APCR, and if you are spamming APCR, they get more bang for the buck.

[milk_my_duds 4]

Is it just me or the gun on this tank is horrible?  Bloom is small but it goes off all directions randomly so much to a point it's worse than T54 mod 1 gun.

[Rexxie 10,788]

1 hour ago, milk_my_duds said:

Is it just me or the gun on this tank is horrible?  Bloom is small but it goes off all directions randomly so much to a point it's worse than T54 mod 1 gun.

You could try picking up a ton of 50% off food to make it even more ridiculous, but it's probably just bad luck. Any time someone says "bloom is small but..." it's just unlucky rng.

[lavawing 498]

9 hours ago, Rexxie said:

You could try picking up a ton of 50% off food to make it even more ridiculous, but it's probably just bad luck. Any time someone says "bloom is small but..." it's just unlucky rng.

 

11 hours ago, milk_my_duds said:

Is it just me or the gun on this tank is horrible?  Bloom is small but it goes off all directions randomly so much to a point it's worse than T54 mod 1 gun.

Crosspoast from Renegade thread 

Quote

Strangely enough, even without taking into account the difference in alpha, the Renegade's gun performs better than the CS-52's. The CS-52 105 seems to have the typical British problem of not hitting the centre of the reticle, and you really notice it because of the fast shells and because there are no other possible variables that can explain it.

I'd be interested in doing some testing to see if the CS-52 gets really shitty sigma, and if different sigma values for different tanks are still a thing.

I suspect it is.

I had several matches in the CS-52 where I sprayed fully aimed shots at stationary targets nearly 10 times in a row. Granted, those were 500m+ shots, but I'm pretty sure could have hit some of them with something like the T-10's gun or the Renegade's APCR despite their lower listed accuracy. It's been enough to prompt me to run IAU to push the accuracy to .30, but even then it sprays all over the place, much like the guns on the Centurions.

I'm pretty sure if you ran them in a training room and put them side by side and had them shoot at stationary targets at ~500m, the Renegade would be 100% more accurate.

[Rexxie 10,788]

Since we don't have evidence per-tank shot distribution currently exists (and most of the testing that has been done suggests it probably doesn't), I don't think its fair to judge something based on something like sigma. We just haven't been playing the tank long enough and our brains are seeing patterns that don't exist.

[milk_my_duds 4]

Just checked and noticed 3-mark CS52 LIS requires 3170, while T54 requires 2821 and TVP T50/51 requires 3340.

[lavawing 498]

Note to self:

Don't try and mark tanks when there are 6 CS-52s on each side

[milk_my_duds 4]

8 hours ago, lavawing said:

Note to self:

Don't try and mark tanks when there are 6 CS-52s on each side

I thought it's easier to 3-mark when a lot of people are playing it, because the moving average is lower due to the population spread is always dragging the moving average down.  No?