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JMak97008

Upgrading 4690K rig

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Got an upgrade itch that I want to scratch. I play only Wot, though I have dl'd and installed GTA V and the kids play Fortnite and Apex with CoD coming in soon.  CPU is running at 98% load when playing WoT on the UW display using almost all max settings.  No major application or other productivity needs.

Current setup:

  • CPU - 4690k oc'd to 4.0ghz
  • Mobo - Asrock Z97 Pro3
  • Cooler - Cryorig H7 Quad Lumi
  • RAM - Ballitix Sportk DDR3 4x4GB
  • GPU - EVGA 2070 Super
  • PSU - EVGA G2 650w
  • Displays - 1x 34" 3440x1440 uw + 2x  27" 2560x1440

I've been looking hard at upgrading to a 10600K, X490 mobo, and 32GB RAM (cuz why not fill all the slots) which has set my budget for me at around $650.  That's an amount I can handle, but would rather spend less.  Specifically, I've been looking at:

  • CPU - i5-10600K - $295 at Amazon - Like this cpu because I will, again, be messing with OC'ing, though I see myself stopping at 4.7/4.8Ghz
  • Mobo - MSI MAG Z490 Tomahawk - $189 at Amazon (RGB whore and like the nvme covers)
  • RAM - GSkillz TridentZ RGB 3200 C16 DDR4 - 4x8GB for $169 at Amazon; though I have looked at a non-RGB RAM - TeamGroup T-Force Dark 4x8GB 3200 C16 for $116.

Having slowed my roll here, I've started looking at the 3600 and 3700X from AMD which I was initially not even looking at (Intel snobbery perhaps).  Seems that the 3700X is right there on gaming and significantly better on productivity relative to the 10600K while the 3600 lags only slightly on gaming while being better at productivity against the 10600K.

I'm wondering what the real, practical impact on world of tanks is between something like 10600K and 3600/3700X.  Im pushing 110+ fps on nearly all maxed settings in wot with the 4690k and 2070Super.  Will the 3600/3700X/10600 substantially improve my gaming sexiness or am I nibbling around the edges?

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10600K can be OCed, 10600 cannot.

10600K is better for gaming than every AMD part (for now). However the difference at higher resolutions is like 5% while stock.

 

With a 4690k, you should be looking at a new CPU if you are going to be playing new games as they begin to take advantage of more cores. Otherwise you start experiencing stuttering making games uncomfortable to play.

 

New ryzen CPUs are being announced this month so things can change.

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8 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

10600K can be OCed, 10600 cannot.

10600K is better for gaming than every AMD part (for now). However the difference at higher resolutions is like 5% while stock.

 

With a 4690k, you should be looking at a new CPU if you are going to be playing new games as they begin to take advantage of more cores. Otherwise you start experiencing stuttering making games uncomfortable to play.

 

New ryzen CPUs are being announced this month so things can change.

Thanks.  Meant to say 10600K throughout the post.  It's a bitch finding 10600Ks right now with any reasonable shipping time.

I just got this itch this week and don't really want to wait for a mere announcement to be followed by a few more months of waiting for actual stock to appear and it seems the hardware companies are all doing the same thing these days - announce...wait...announce again...wait...release very limited quantities...out of stock...limited stock...wash, rinse, repeat.

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next gen ryzen's middle offering, it's coming in literally a month. You can just get a current gen ryzen and upgrade and keep the same motherboard if it's compatible. Intel has been stuck for a few years now and arent getting any more gains from 14nm and 10nm yields are still in question.

If you need it right now get a ryzen 3600 and upgrade to a 4600x (they may call it 5600x). Also AMD doesn't really do limited quantities like that with CPU's, that's mostly nvidia trying to raise margins on their GPUs.

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Seeing that you still hang on to the 4690K, that tells me you probably won't upgrade again in the next 1-2 years. Therefore I 'll point into a slightly different direction.

 

Forget 4x 8GB, instead go 2x 16GB. Nowdays it doesn't make a big difference in price and you avoid the problems that sometimes come from populating all RAM slots on a board.

 

Get 8 cores and 16threads, if you can afford it! There is no question that the 10600K is the "value" gaming king with the 3600X in second place atm. The thing is that new modern consoles will have 8 relative fast and powerfull cores. That tells me the 8 cores might become the defacto standard within 3 years for console ports, and you might and up in a similar situation like now with the 4690K and 4770/4790K. While the 4c/4t CPU sucks balls gaming in modern games especially while looking at frame times, the 4c/8t CPUs from yesteryear are still somewhat relevant. Get a 10700 non-K with "fast" RAM 3200+ on Z490, up the powerlimit, optimize RAM and raise the BLCK to 102.9MHz or get one of the AMD 8cores.

 

The last paragraph is somewhat speculative, my crystal ball is in the repair shop atm.

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Few things to note.

  • You are currently CPU-bound for WoT despite being at 1440p/UW. The upgrades below should place you well in excess of 144+. Realistically what is pushing you back is the extremely low clock speed of the 4690k. At 4.0GHz, you can hardly call that an overclock. If you push it to 4.4/4.5GHz you will be fine for WoT/Fortnite/Apex.
  • If you are going to stop at 4.7-4.8GHz, you might as well go AMD (particularly zen 3).
  • Zen 3 is literally around the corner - October 8th. It will be worth waiting on reviews as well as checking out OC-ability. If - for whatever reason - you don't care and cannot wait 2 weeks...

Ryzen build ~$618. You can add the Noctua fan from the Intel build to bring the price up to ~$640 for better cooling performance.

Intel build ~$678. A little over budget due to adding a Noctua A12 fan for push/pull on the cryorig. If you aren't going 5.0+ on these effectively binned refresh chips, there's no point going with a K series.

My strong recommendation - as you have 1440p monitors - is to just go AMD after zen 3 is released as it will open up the used market as well as options for Zen 3 if you want.

 

Also SUPER relevant.

 

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It's sad they stopped at the 4790k with the socket 1150 boards because it was a very capable one.

Before my son took the 1150 system with him I would overclock the 4770k to 4.7 Ghz with the GTX 780 and it had no problems playing WoT on the 1440k monitor at high settings. (Edit: I had a very good chip that would overclock very well and I didn't even de-lid it.)

Buy a 4970k from a reputable buyer, overclock it, and call it a day till you're ready to go for a new ryzen/3080/4k.

This is just my opinion though as I'm waiting to score a 3090 for a new system since I have nothing but a laptop to play on now.

 

Restored your post

~Assassin7

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7 hours ago, crapcannon said:

 

Old Intel i7 k cpus are traded for insane prices on the used market., often going in the region 200 $/€. Finding one for a reasonable price is often impossible.

Really? We're deleting people's posts now and posting nonsense in it's place? Is this what this forum has come down to?

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On 9/19/2020 at 9:35 PM, Raj said:

next gen ryzen's middle offering, it's coming in literally a month. You can just get a current gen ryzen and upgrade and keep the same motherboard if it's compatible. Intel has been stuck for a few years now and arent getting any more gains from 14nm and 10nm yields are still in question.

If you need it right now get a ryzen 3600 and upgrade to a 4600x (they may call it 5600x). Also AMD doesn't really do limited quantities like that with CPU's, that's mostly nvidia trying to raise margins on their GPUs.

Im being a bit of an Intel snob and not liking the idea of shifting to Ryzen.  When I built my current PC, AMDs cpu offerings were crap and I went with Intel.  I'm familiar now with Intel, but maybe that doesn't actually mean much at all.  Although, I do understand that going AMD will save some cash (EDIT - not if I go with a X570 mobo, thought, lol).

In an impulse-fueled rush, I went ahead and ordered a 10600k ($292); the Z490 Tomahawk; and 4x8GB Team Dark X...only to cancel the order this morning after exercising a few brain cells.

So, I am waiting, though I can't help combing the web for deals and ideas on this upgrade.  I don't need to upgrade right at this moment. Im currently running WoT at 110-130 fps with nearly all max settings and keeping temps in check, so...

Maybe a jump to AMD is on the horizon. The $ savings might mean I get to feed my RGB need.

On 9/20/2020 at 1:14 AM, Folterknecht said:

Seeing that you still hang on to the 4690K, that tells me you probably won't upgrade again in the next 1-2 years. Therefore I 'll point into a slightly different direction.

 

Forget 4x 8GB, instead go 2x 16GB. Nowdays it doesn't make a big difference in price and you avoid the problems that sometimes come from populating all RAM slots on a board.

 

Get 8 cores and 16threads, if you can afford it! There is no question that the 10600K is the "value" gaming king with the 3600X in second place atm. The thing is that new modern consoles will have 8 relative fast and powerfull cores. That tells me the 8 cores might become the defacto standard within 3 years for console ports, and you might and up in a similar situation like now with the 4690K and 4770/4790K. While the 4c/4t CPU sucks balls gaming in modern games especially while looking at frame times, the 4c/8t CPUs from yesteryear are still somewhat relevant. Get a 10700 non-K with "fast" RAM 3200+ on Z490, up the powerlimit, optimize RAM and raise the BLCK to 102.9MHz or get one of the AMD 8cores.

 

The last paragraph is somewhat speculative, my crystal ball is in the repair shop atm.

You're absolutely right...I won't be upgrading for another 3 years minimum and likely, as with this current build, more like 5 years.

On the RAM...what sorts of problems can arise by filling all 4 DIMMs? Ive been running 4x4GB DDR3 since I built this rig and have had no issues.  On the other hand, that's merely my user experience.  After all the memory research I've done, I do want to try tweaking the memory speed to stretch 3200mhz to 3600+.  But I keep getting that advice to go 2x rather than 4x on the RAM.  I'll look into that more.  My OCD compels me to fill all 4 slots.

And right on about the 4690K/4790K...2 years after building this PC I was wishing I had gotten the 4790K.  Going 8 cores and 16 threads is 10700K/9900K or 3700X territory, right?  That 3700X...it's cheaper than the 10600K for goodness sakes!

Whatever CPU I get, I want to be able to OC, so the non-K 10700 just isn't on the table.

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25 minutes ago, JMak97008 said:

Im being a bit of an Intel snob and not liking the idea of shifting to Ryzen.  When I built my current PC, AMDs cpu offerings were crap and I went with Intel.  I'm familiar now with Intel, but maybe that doesn't actually mean much at all.  Although, I do understand that going AMD will save some cash.

In an impulse-fueled rush, I went ahead and ordered a 10600k ($292); the Z490 Tomahawk; and 4x8GB Team Dark X...only to cancel the order this morning after exercising a few brain cells.

So, I am waiting, though I can't help combing the web for deals and ideas on this upgrade.  I don't need to upgrade right at this moment. Im currently running WoT at 110-130 fps with nearly all max settings and keeping temps in check, so...

Maybe a jump to AMD is on the horizon. The $ savings might mean I get to feed my RGB need.

Did you even see my original post JMak?

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13 hours ago, Fulcrous said:

Few things to note.

  • You are currently CPU-bound for WoT despite being at 1440p/UW. The upgrades below should place you well in excess of 144+. Realistically what is pushing you back is the extremely low clock speed of the 4690k. At 4.0GHz, you can hardly call that an overclock. If you push it to 4.4/4.5GHz you will be fine for WoT/Fortnite/Apex.
  • If you are going to stop at 4.7-4.8GHz, you might as well go AMD (particularly zen 3).
  • Zen 3 is literally around the corner - October 8th. It will be worth waiting on reviews as well as checking out OC-ability. If - for whatever reason - you don't care and cannot wait 2 weeks...

Ryzen build ~$618. You can add the Noctua fan from the Intel build to bring the price up to ~$640 for better cooling performance.

Intel build ~$678. A little over budget due to adding a Noctua A12 fan for push/pull on the cryorig. If you aren't going 5.0+ on these effectively binned refresh chips, there's no point going with a K series.

My strong recommendation - as you have 1440p monitors - is to just go AMD after zen 3 is released as it will open up the used market as well as options for Zen 3 if you want.

I used to run the 4690K at 4.5ghz, but after installing the 2070Super and going triple monitors, temps went way up and the only I brought them down (without installing new cooling) was to downclock to 4.0.

I was going into the 10600K with a mind toward oc'ing up to 5ghz (though Im using an air cooler, so...).

Really appreciate the build suggestions.

For now, I guess, I'll be waiting.  As noted above, I impulse ordered a 10600K upgrade, but then canceled after thinking about it.  I'm not going to pay $30 more the cpu to have right now (was $260 a few weeks ago).  And, with AMD's announcement (or is it actual release?) in October, maybe that will push some prices down.

22 minutes ago, crapcannon said:

Did you even see my original post JMak?

No...only what is there now.

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20 minutes ago, JMak97008 said:

I used to run the 4690K at 4.5ghz, but after installing the 2070Super and going triple monitors, temps went way up and the only I brought them down (without installing new cooling) was to downclock to 4.0.

I was going into the 10600K with a mind toward oc'ing up to 5ghz (though Im using an air cooler, so...).

Really appreciate the build suggestions.

For now, I guess, I'll be waiting.  As noted above, I impulse ordered a 10600K upgrade, but then canceled after thinking about it.  I'm not going to pay $30 more the cpu to have right now (was $260 a few weeks ago).  And, with AMD's announcement (or is it actual release?) in October, maybe that will push some prices down.

No...only what is there now.

One of the mods just replaced it. But to make a long story short your current system is quite capable of playing modern games in 1440k. I was suggesting, if you could get one for a reasonable price, a 4790k and as someone else suggested more RAM.

If you are patient you could probably get both for less than $250.

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16 minutes ago, crapcannon said:

One of the mods just replaced it. But to make a long story short your current system is quite capable of playing modern games in 1440k. I was suggesting, if you could get one for a reasonable price, a 4790k and as someone else suggested more RAM.

4790K new is around $275...I get to keep my current hardware, though, I don't scratch that upgrade bling itch, lols.

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22 minutes ago, JMak97008 said:

4790K new is around $275...I get to keep my current hardware, though, I don't scratch that upgrade bling itch, lols.

If you're looking for new then that's a totally different story.

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1 hour ago, crapcannon said:

If you're looking for new then that's a totally different story.

Yeah, think I am looking for new.  4790K could take me another year or two, but used or new, they're expensive and moreso than even a 3600/3600X.

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Literally zero point getting a 4790k at $270 because you are locked into the Z97 chipset with no upgrade path. You would have to be insane to do so when there are literally better options at the same price point that allows for generational upgrades in performance (if required). This is with a motherboard AND RAM included.

Just to prove a point at $20 more.

Just to prove a point at $50 more.

As per AMD's new CPUs, unveil date is October 8th which would mean availability at November/December.

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2 hours ago, Fulcrous said:

Literally zero point getting a 4790k at $270 because you are locked into the Z97 chipset with no upgrade path. You would have to be insane to do so when there are literally better options at the same price point that allows for generational upgrades in performance (if required). This is with a motherboard AND RAM included.

Just to prove a point at $20 more.

Just to prove a point at $50 more.

As per AMD's new CPUs, unveil date is October 8th which would mean availability at November/December.

Point well made and proven.

I think I've petty much up my mind to stick with Intel.  I'll hem and haw for a bit waiting for either the 10600K to drop to $260 (msrp) or maybe stretch for the 10700K if it hits $350.  

Unless the AMD announcement has an immediate effect on prices, I'll be leaning this way...

Thanks for all the advice and info.

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Intel are still outright better in pure FPS numbers. Biggest point of suck is lack of PCIe 4.0, which might be a problem 4-5 years down the line if you only upgrade your GPU but won't be a problem if you are going to be building a new system anyway. At which time DDR5 should be the new standard.

 

AMD have better value per core currently.

I personally think they're going to be a lot closer to Intel in pure gaming performance, maybe even matching them, but surpassing them would be a small surprise but not within the realm of impossibility. The next gen AMD CPUs will be more expensive than current ones given the amount of price drops they have had, the value proposition may not be there anymore. This is all speculation anyway and maybe something to keep in mind if you end up waiting long enough

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Thanks, Magical.  

Of course, as soon as I replied to Fulcrous, I started reading more about the 10600K/10700K vs the 3600/3700X...and am wavering, again.  Typical.

It seems clear to me that, if value is the priority, then the AMDs are the go-to, especially the 3600X (25% cheaper).  The 3700X packs a huge value punch because it retails for about the same as the 10600K and it has 2 more cores and the 3700X is right there at 1440 gaming (which is what I do) and the 3700X is 25% better in productivity (which I don't do - at least, Im not using the applications that reviewers use to test productivity performance).  The only real downside here for me is having to learn about the AMD components, like the mobos and RAM.

I primarily use my PC to browse the web, use MS Office applications, and play a handful of games (none of them competitively), so the AMD 3600X/3700X ought to be more than enough.  Buying the 3600X yields the best value saving nearly $80 relative to the 10600K and the B550 mobo price is $10 cheaper than the Z490 I'd get, and I'd be getting the same RAM (3200mhz and oc it to the preferred 3600mhz for Ryzen).

So, a $90 savings for the 3600X, BUT, I'm still at 6 cores.  I think I'd only want to go AMD IF I can get 8 cores, for the reasons Folk above cited.  And the 3700X is the same price as the 10600K, mobo is $10 cheaper, and same RAM, so a $10 savings AND I get 8 cores.  Positive signs - Announcement of a release date for the Zen 3 puts downward pressure on the 3700X pricing and that $10 savings grows.

That's my clear-eyed view of things. Though there's a huge BUT here...there's no use oc'ing the 3700X, though oc'ing the memory, IF you can get it to work properly can yield some additional results and close the gap further on the 10600K. That means buying more expensive, faster RAM which eats into the tiny savings by going with AMD and it means tinkering with memory timing, something I'm not inclined to do (though I will on Intel because I'm already familiar with it on that side).  Though, even still, I'll have 8 cores with the 3700X.

Ugh...

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3700X mem OC is super easy. 3600Mhz ram with low timings, keep your FCLK the same as the ram clock and you will get big gains in perf. You can also dump more voltage and try to go higher but the biggest and easiest gains are with just keeping your FCLK the same as the Memory clock. So its pretty much as easy as running XMP and upping your FCLK to 1800 for 3600Mhz ram.

Headroom isn't that high but you can get CPU clocks up a few points.

For mobos, an X570 or B550 is fine. You don't need to go to the top to be able to OC as you can OC with B550. Honestly though, high end B550 boards and Midrange X570 boards overlap in price so same shit either way.

Most of what you do still seems to prefer higher clocks, so Intel would be better but whether its enough to justify the extra cost is another matter.

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1 hour ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

3700X mem OC is super easy. 3600Mhz ram with low timings, keep your FCLK the same as the ram clock and you will get big gains in perf. You can also dump more voltage and try to go higher but the biggest and easiest gains are with just keeping your FCLK the same as the Memory clock. So its pretty much as easy as running XMP and upping your FCLK to 1800 for 3600Mhz ram.

Headroom isn't that high but you can get CPU clocks up a few points.

For mobos, an X570 or B550 is fine. You don't need to go to the top to be able to OC as you can OC with B550. Honestly though, high end B550 boards and Midrange X570 boards overlap in price so same shit either way.

Most of what you do still seems to prefer higher clocks, so Intel would be better but whether its enough to justify the extra cost is another matter.

Two things now:

First, the B550 Tomahawk mobo is $159 and comes with a game, so additional savings there.

Second, Newegg has a 10700K + Auros Elite AC Z490 mobo for under $500 which when paired with $120 RAM kit puts me at where I was going to end up price wise with the 10600K.

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If you want to OC and feel that satisfaction of MOAR GAINS, Intel would probably be best. Don't have to worry about FCLK and just crank up that voltage and clock. That 10700K deal sounds pretty good.

But you could also feel those MOAR GAINS with a non xmp run and then turning on xmp with AMD. The jump is huge.

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15 hours ago, crapcannon said:

One of the mods just replaced it.

@crapcannon

That was me - sorry. I just wanted to quote part of your post and must have hit the wrong button, as it was already past midnight here. Honest mistake on my part.

 

Regarding the content - yes, many used Intel i7 K cpus go for insane prices (on both sides of the pond).

 

@JMak97008

 

I'm not "buildzoid", KingPin or Igor Wallossek, but from my ~20 years in dealing with PCs and OCing, when it comes to filling up all RAM slots there are several things to consider assuming we are starting with near price and capacity parity:

  • 4 > 2, therefor 2x the amount of possible trouble (DOA, partial defects)
  • 4 > 2, higher chance of getting a total lemmon when it comes to OC
  • more "strain" on the memory subsystem, with a higher number of sticks
  • higher memory capacity of a stick usually means lower OC potential. That usually applies to "high density" sticks, with atm go up to 32-128GB. 16GB sticks are an old hat nowdays and are sold at up to 4400MHz from factory, where as 128 sticks anly go up to around 3000MHz max imo.
  • 2 sticks leave room to grow, though it seems unlickly that you 'll need to expand to 64+GB with that system and usecase.

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13 hours ago, JMak97008 said:

Yeah, think I am looking for new.  4790K could take me another year or two, but used or new, they're expensive and moreso than even a 3600/3600X.

I hear ya. I was looking for a QX9770 for my old socket 775 system. Still a stupid amount of $$ for a cpu that came out in 2008. So I settled for a Q9650 for $60.

1 hour ago, Folterknecht said:

@crapcannon

That was me - sorry. I just wanted to quote part of your post and must have hit the wrong button, as it was already past midnight here. Honest mistake on my part.

 

Regarding the content - yes, many used Intel i7 K cpus go for insane prices (on both sides of the pond)

 

It's all good. Shit happens.

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10 hours ago, JMak97008 said:

 

get AMD if the intel option doesnt have pcie 4.0 and if you can upgrade to what next gen amd is on that motherboard.

AMD at the high end is better if you stream also, less dropped frames and whatnot.

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