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Tman450

New Italian Heavies: Rhinoceronte

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This thing is just awful, full stop. Extremely poor damage output, 4s interclip, horrible on the move dispersion.

The armor and mobility are actually okay, -10 gun depression and decentish turret armor with some noticeable weakspots. the standard 268 pen 1400m/s APCR is nice, but the 325 pen HEAT has potato shell velocity (756m/s).

The problem is this thing just cannot deal damage quickly enough. The absurd reload times are not worth having an autoreloader, as unlike the spaghetti mediums, the tank isn't flexible.

Edited by Tman450
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Those soft stats alone make this the worst tier10 by a wide margin. The rest of the stats dont even matter in comparison. If they dont buff this during test I'd be amazed.

Edit: After looking at the entire line, all the heavies need buffs.

The tier7 is a 240 alpha heavy with RNG armor, 42 acc, bad soft stats, terrible prem pen(18 pen increase over AP) and slow as hell.

The tier8 has 1500 DPM!!!!!! and once again terrible prem pen (242). On the bright side 17 hp/ton

Tier9 with 1900 dpm :( and a hull very similar to the T-10 which we all know is worthless.

 

The tier7-9 tanks have relatively small butter turret cheeks surrounded by ricochet angles which is going to make fighting them RNG hell. Meanwhile the Tier10 is an AP purists nightmare or a prem spammers dream. These all look like pure distilled frustration to use and fight between their unreliable armor layouts, bad soft stats, and shit prem ammo.

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incase anyone needs a recap, the machanic is useless unless ur braindead. almost nobody will ever think to fire 2 seconds before the next shell is loaded to get the max reload reduction. and the reload reductions are pointless because even then you just wasted an entire extra shell regardless.

The DPM/Reloads: through the processes of SuperTest, WG consistently nerfed the reloads across the board to go in line with the reload reductions, so the reloads are trash because they dont want the reload reductions to be too good once the mechanic kicks in. But as i just mentioned the mechanic is useless, and will almost never be of use. so ur simply left with a tank that has bad reloads/DPM for nothing in return. Just to give you an idea of just how bad it is, the Rhino with full purple equipment and a max crew with Food has a 13.9 second reload on its fastest shell (once fully loaded) so 14 seconds, most other HT's with that kind of a reload get 750 alpha, while other HT's with 490 alpha get sub 8-9 second reloads. most of the time you wont even be fully loaded by the time you get to the fight, and will only just be finishing your second shell in most cases.

The Gun: this tank has the same bloom values as the CGC artillery when turning the tank/on the move, that should about sum that up. the amazing paper aimtime and accuracy are a lie

The Ammo: this is another frustrating point about the tank. you have two choices, good APCR (268) with great velocity (1500m/s) and 325 HEAT with terrible velocity. most of the time you will want to fire APCR, because my god the HEAT is so slow. but as soon as you run into a Maus/E100 or anything with armor you have to then dip into a 1 minute long reload just so you can have a shell that can pen shit. which at tier 10 nowadays is basically everything. but at the same time full HEAT will drive you nuts because shooting anything at range will cause internal pain. 

The Armor: its not great/not terrible. On flat terrain the UFP is mostly weak to tier 10 standard rounds, and it cant reliably sidescrape because of the rounded hull. the Turret cheeks on flat terrain are only immune to same tier AP, but gold is an ez Pen. another point is that the Gun mantlet itself is only strong when facing directly at your target, turn a little to the left or right and the whole of the gun is 180-200mm. the tank also features a small Pyramid on top of the gun, this is a weakpoint. small but still an easy pen (170mm) the tanks armor will mostly excel in a perfect hulldown scenario where only ur gun pokes over a ridge/object. in this case it can be near impossible to dig out, but its a very niche scenario. the tank also features a 30MM roof and 20mm engine deck, and the flat areas around the gun and above the UFP are 45-50mm. in short this tank doesn't take HE/Arty well at all.

Overall this is the worst tier 10 HT period, and if it makes it to live in its current state.....then its just a waste of time/xp/credits.

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I played a couple of games in the tier 8 and 9. All  the points above are spot on, but I'd like to add that 12 km reverse speed is very annoying for poking. The Bisonti has 15 in reverse and that feels slow. 12 is just terrible.

I was excited for this line, since I kind of enjoy grinding new stuff and have very little left to grind in the game, but unless they buff the tanks massively it seems like a line for masochists. 

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2 hours ago, Sapros said:

While it's undoubtedly terrible, I for one might get some enjoyment out of this.

he.jpg.5201e916439c2763f4cc63b5fcb97eec.jpg

 

 

You know there is going to be a Rhino sitting on the Cliff hill penetrating hull decks with HE. 

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20 minutes ago, SchnitzelTruck said:

You know there is going to be a Rhino sitting on the Cliff hill penetrating hull decks with HE. 

The HE would be nice, except it's almost impossible to use unless you have it preloaded because you would have to reload your entire magazine and loading a single shell takes almost 20 seconds.

Expect to see some shitters spamming full HE out of this though. 

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Just now, Tman450 said:

The HE would be nice, except it's almost impossible to use unless you have it preloaded because you would have to reload your entire magazine and loading a single shell takes almost 20 seconds.

Dont worry, he'll be camping the hill for 10 minutes. Plenty of time to fire maybe 4 times.

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1 minute ago, Tman450 said:

Expect to see some shitters spamming full HE out of this though. 

I resemble that remark

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I'm still gonna get it for completionism, but I will likely not play it more than a handful of times.

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Dunno if this is a hot take or not, but I feel like that WG heavily focusing on "new mechanics"/gimmicks like the Rinoceronte is actually really bad for a lot of reasons. I feel like that is exactly why a lot of new tier 10s have either been just bad or uninteresting despite their mechanics that are technically unique, or they end up being broken and absolutely despised by the playerbase (EBRs, looking at you).

A couple of reasons why I feel like that constantly adding gimmicks is bad IMO:

  • Adding new mechanics adds an extra layer to coding, testing and balancing. This slows down development of new lines, and makes them harder to balance.
  • Not just that, this also probably leaves less room for balancing existing tanks, which also could be why there has been relatively little balancing to existing stuff in past 2 years.
  • A lot of the time the new tanks that have some kind of crazy mechanic also have heavy downsides to balance the mechanics. This make the tanks very minmaxed, which then makes them even harder to balance right, and they probably end up wasting even more time than they should.
  • We know that super minmaxed tanks have historically been very hard to balance (any mega alpha or mega clip tank is an obvious example), and in a few cases WG had to even remove those tanks, namely the WT E100. As I already said, almost every new tier 10 with a gimmick has either been underwhelming (ST-II, and Rinoceronte if it doesn't get buffed), has become some of the most hated vehicles after arties (EBRs) or has been generally just nerfed (Progetto 65).

Basically, WG focusing on gimmicks means that it takes them longer to add new lines, but they said lines also become harder to balance, making it actually more likely that the new, gimmicky tanks end up being either forgotten in 1-2 months, or they end up being breaking the game, than a new line without gimmicks. 60TP line is a good example, the tank or the line technically doesn't have any gimmicks, and it doesn't even have any sort of historical appeal, but it's still more popular than most of the gimmicky lines they've introduced in past 2 years.

I feel like it'd be better if WG focused on things like "hey, we haven't used this kind of gun on this kind of class or platform" instead of "what if we waste time by adding an useless gimmick that nobody will give a shit about on a top of existing gimmick and then add it on a tank with as minmaxed stats as possible", latter which pretty much describes what the Rinoceronte is. Even without gimmicks, there's already a lot you can do with just changing existing numbers. You just need to be creative with it, which I guess is something that WG lacks.

New gimmicks/mechanics can be really sick if done and balanced correctly. The problem is that most of WG's gimmicks...haven't been successful, which is exactly why I think WG should focus less on gimmicks and more on new lines just for the sake of new content. Double barrels a good example why going for extreme gimmicks isn't really worth it IMO - not only they took ages to implement the DBs, but they're also the reason why the IS-4 buffs took forever (ST-II was originally supposed to replace the IS-4). Then the ST-II was added as a separate tanks, ended up being among the most forgotten tier 10s in the game, and IS-4 got buffs independently, defeating the whole reason why the IS-4 buffs were postponed in the first place. If they focused on something else than double barrels, they could've probably made more lines in it's place AND buffed the IS-4 much earlier.

So TL;DR: gimmicks bad, rather add more "normal" tanks, which'd allow WG to add new lines faster, balance them easier and give them more time to balance existing stuff.

------

As for the Rinoceronte itself, there's some "fun" appeal on it, but it sucks ass right now. Also think it has potential to become the worst tier 10 HT in the game if it doesn't get buffed. Despite it's crazy minmaxed stats, I feel like it doesn't really have a role - it's not fast enough to be a heavium, it's DEFINITELY not tanky enough to be a proper heavy (too little HP and turret is terrible unless it uses full gun depression, and even then 340 HEAT is 50/50 against the ENTIRE turret), and it has too awful reload to be a proper support autoloading heavy. It's a shit brawler because of it's terrible HP pool, practically useless hull armor, abysmal reload, gun handling, and bad reverse speed, and despite the amazing velocity and hard stats, it's really not a sniper, either. They should AT VERY LEAST buff the reload so that the tank can at least pretend to be a support heavy, right now it's not even that. If one wants to make it viable, it probably needs either more speed or armor/HP on top of better reload on top of that as well. The tank is very hard to balance well, though - a tank with a 3x490 autoreloader, -10 gun dep, some turret armor and speed could become very toxic if buffed too much.

It looks so ugly that I'll grind it regardless, I've played the Type 5 Heavy in it's worst form so at very least the Rinoceronte can't be as bad as that...right? :minidoge:

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1 hour ago, leggasiini said:

So TL;DR: gimmicks bad, rather add more "normal" tanks, which'd allow WG to add new lines faster, balance them easier and give them more time to balance existing stuff. 

Overall I agree, gimmicks are bad and in particular they are bad because they are a nightmare to balance. It's a fine tightrope between making a gimmick useful and making it absolutely broken. Autoloaders alone, as the first real gimmick introduced to the game, shows that the line between useless and overpowered is narrow indeed and very easy to cross to one side or the other.

I understand why they feel they need them though, as otherwise the only thing that differentiates tanks in the game are some very minor differences - but where once they tried to give flavour through that (e.g. Chinese tanks had higher alpha and no gun depression relative to Russian tanks, which is a reasonable and easily distinguishable difference), but because they flavour seemed unpopular, they've gradually shifted increasingly towards the gimmicks.

As for the tank in question - yeah, I'm disappointed. It looked initially like it could be an interesting tank in an interesting line (plus sexy look, although not quite a sexy as the new tier 10 reward medium, a bit salty about that given I'm not in a clan), but as it currently stands it would be simply awful. The poor DPM and awful gun handling and low HP already frustrates me hugely in the Bisconte, and this looks like all those weaknesses magnified, and you don't get anything useful in return.

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2 hours ago, leggasiini said:

Basically, WG focusing on gimmicks means that it takes them longer to add new lines, but they said lines also become harder to balance

Interesting you say that, because ive noticed how we haven't actually gotten a Christmas tech tree on time since the Polish HT's.

EBR's: Delayed

DoubleBarrel tanks: Delayed

Italian HT's: Delayed  

all of them being new lines balanced/marketed around new gimmicks, and all of them failed to meet the Christmas deadline.

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3 minutes ago, Deus__Ex__Machina said:

Interesting you say that, because ive noticed how we haven't actually gotten a Christmas tech tree on time since the Polish HT's.

EBR's: Delayed

DoubleBarrel tanks: Delayed

Italian HT's: Delayed  

all of them being new lines balanced/marketed around new gimmicks, and all of them failed to meet the Christmas deadline.

might be intentional so the Christmas bonuses/discounts will never apply to them

then again never assume malice when incompetence would do the job....but that's three years in a row now

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There are plenty of tank lines they could introduce to the game that would be fun additions without needing a gimmick. I think people would play tanks that were cosmetically weird or cool, were similar to things they already liked but a bit different so they have more flavors to pick, or just added more vehicles to a nation they're interested in playing. Swiss heavies would look cool, Swiss mediums would be a new flavor of NATO style medium, they could add more British vehicles easily, or add Japanese tank destroyers, or add a branch of single shot Italian medium Patton clones even. 

(Also they could have let the Italian heavies just work the same as the mediums.)

(Also they could make maps better.)

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4 hours ago, Deus__Ex__Machina said:

Interesting you say that, because ive noticed how we haven't actually gotten a Christmas tech tree on time since the Polish HT's.

EBR's: Delayed

DoubleBarrel tanks: Delayed

Italian HT's: Delayed  

all of them being new lines balanced/marketed around new gimmicks, and all of them failed to meet the Christmas deadline.

On top of all that, all those lines you mentioned also were failures in a way or another; former became probably the most despised thing next to arty, and latter two have tier 10s that more or less useless and forgotten in months (assuming the Rinoceronte don't get buffed before release, which is unlikely)

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So.. entire line is meh. No reason to play tiers 8 and 9, because Bisonte is tier 8.5 and makes mad credits. And seems like Rhino is worse than next reward tank, the CC45T.

Why even bother researching anything if all new tech tree tanks are gonna be food for premiums and reward vehicles?

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8 minutes ago, Bobi_Kreeg said:

So.. entire line is meh. No reason to play tiers 8 and 9, because Bisonte is tier 8.5 and makes mad credits. And seems like Rhino is worse than next reward tank, the CC45T.

Why even bother researching anything if all new tech tree tanks are gonna be food for premiums and reward vehicles?

Because your xvm camo is too strong to get into non-shitter clans and you are in perpetual poverty owing to the plague known as COVID-19

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10 hours ago, leggasiini said:

So TL;DR: gimmicks bad, rather add more "normal" tanks, which'd allow WG to add new lines faster, balance them easier and give them more time to balance existing stuff.

 

Wargaming has had an obsession with gimmick balancing for years. Remember when they reworked the French TD and British heavy tech trees so they "made sense"? Remember the British LTs with their "battleship guns" and limited shell count? Every tech tree they've released or reworked in the last 4 years has had a gimmick. Over the years Wargaming has just gotten better about cramming paper designs into the gimmick of the month box. 

As far as gimmicks go, the Italian heavies are really mediocre. I guess I am fine with that. They'll be like the Manticore line, right down to the crew layout change at tier 10. Wargaming will come back in a year and give them a little pity buff, then say they don't know how to balance the line before squeezing out another half baked line in another nation. It's better for the game and meta than the sort of madness that was the 268 v4 or Type 5 rework.  Dull, but at least it isn't some sort of bobject fiasco. With autoloaders. 

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Ugh. This is sad to hear. Currently grinding the Italian meds just to get to the heavies.

Maybe I'll just grind the Polish line instead.

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3 hours ago, lavawing said:

Because your xvm camo is too strong to get into non-shitter clans and you are in perpetual poverty owing to the plague known as COVID-19

I've been in clans with shit stats. Still got Bobject 907 and some tier 8s. You can do it with just being active. But the entire CW thing is booring, and doesn't fit my schedule.

I'm sorry to hear you are poor tho. :-(

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