Sandobox, HE 3.0, what people think?

[Hoenn 21]

for all to see, https://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/general-news/sandbox-HE-shells-2021/

i remember their last attempt at HE fix, never got past sandbox.  and they went back to drawing board, quickybaby had a video on it using M4 with 105 sand river in tier 7 battl

Here is the next train of thought, with arta changes and crew 2.0 soon following

The plans they cover, are an attempt to reduce negative shit like shooting HE at E100 or object 263, and causing front engine fire because HE strike the front superstructure and instead splash down on engine module through roof.  Further, to reduce annoying failed penetration high damag HE attacks from spammer, like example T49, 60TP, Fochs155. Front hit HE damage will drop consistentl now.  Lastly, they want to increas potentials from the smaller and mid bore sizes, remove tiny damage or none damaged hits, so hull down tanks can be hit, arta like bat chat not doing 0,  or cap reset, or low HP enemies can be eliminate 

The mechanic is changing, from radius of effects outside on detonate, to instead be a spall damage through the plate, like ram collisions. HE list penetratio increased too, not stopped anymore simply with splash when struck on spaced armor or track, vision mod

 

I think of it, so far so good. Except for some testing facts, 1  that HE penetrates those barriers. I do not think should be given those. 2  more HE penetration will occur on bad tanks for game, like FV and KV2 and Type 5. 

 

 

 

[Jesse_the_Scout 2,098]

I think it's trash. It doesn't even make sense, the shells don't explode anymore. If it does make it to live, cool, swipe that credit card and spam more gold. No one deserves what they get more than the WoT player base.

Here's one way to fix HE.

• You drop the damage to match other shells because why the fuck are they different numbers anyway.
• You increase the blast radius so it can actually be used to target thin armor.
• Penetration drops to 0. Damage will be higher against thin armor anyway, damage spikes just make it hard to balance.

And then option:

1. Rework the damage calculation from (damage/2 - armor thickness) to more like (damage - armor thickness*2).
2. Or you take the arty stun mechanic and scale it down to stuns that last 1-5 seconds or something.

First option would increase overall damage, second option would instead add stun. Either way the shell would be more about aiming and knowing armor models than currently, and be more useful for smaller caliber guns.

As it stands, there's not much reward for aiming. If you increased the blast radius, it would allow you to target, say, low on a turret and splash the top armor on purpose, or fire underneath a tank to hit the thin underarmor. Shots to thick armor would do less, while aimed shots to splash thin armor would be more consistent and do higher average damage. Right now the blast radius is so small it's a waste of time.

The main problem with changing HE is that most of the ideas, like what WG is testing, make the shell pointless, more obnoxious, or both. No one's going to load a shell with 60 pen to try to pen tanks in the side with 80mm + 20mm tracks to do extra damage. The last thing the game needs is a shell for killing lower tier/light tanks more easily. These changes ultimately will just hurt light tanks and buff armored bricks... which is, of course, the original sandbox vision they've been pursuing for years now.

[Private_Miros 2,966]

Well, at least the thread wasn't in Casual Purple this time... Moved.

 

As a player, am I the only one that never had any issues with how HE works currently? Arty mechanics notwithstanding.

[Jesse_the_Scout 2,098]

It's a fairly subjective judgement. I don't like how it works because it results in huge damage spikes one moment, useless 0 damage hits the next. It's absurdly random yet still statistically inferior to other shells. For most of the tanks in the game you'd be doing the average player a favor by just removing it because they expect it to do something useful yet it doesn't.

[H4NI 138]

Badger, full HE - easily makes 3k damage per game even on this server infested with tards. Shoot E100 in turret (or other heavies), 30-35 damage.

[GehakteMolen 2,063]

The reason WG is reworking is HE is to give us a tier 10 premium td: The might Sturmtiger!!

If thats not that purpose, then this is pointless and silly, just make it:

• Rework the damage calculation from (damage/2 - armor thickness) to more like (damage - armor thickness*2).

And remove the fire chance for HE, and its fine.

HE still takes skill (at this moment) since where u hit has effect (shooting the commander hatch causes more dmg as turret face, or rear of turret instead of the rear of the tank) that gets removed now, and a reliable low hp tank killer is not needed... (dont use HE if u have enough penetration, ur fault ur ruskie med with 330 HEAT shoots he at an 30hp target and cant kill it...)

[PlanetaryGenocide 676]

3 hours ago, Jesse_the_Scout said:

As it stands, there's not much reward for aiming. If you increased the blast radius, it would allow you to target, say, low on a turret and splash the top armor on purpose, or fire underneath a tank to hit the thin underarmor.

A C K S H U A L L Y

both of those are actually already things as long as you're talking about dedicated howitzer (derp) guns like the KV-2 or the T49, just FYI - it's how you fight things like Mausen and E-100 frontally when you have no other choice

I have no real opinion on the HE changes since I quit the game a while back and cba to read them fully, but a quick skim makes it look like they're just making HE shells into shittier AP shells but making the "always does damage" meme actually true.  Seems like a shit change but again, quit the game, only skimmed, etc.

 

[Bobi_Kreeg 379]

Maybe they want to kill EBR with this.. Idk. But these new HE shells go through wheels. That's the only positive I can see. But then, why don't they just make EBR wheels part of the dmg model, so that shots to the wheels make damage?

 

In general... 

What's the point of High Explosive shells if they don't actually Explode? Isn't that just another Heat?

[Hoenn 21]

10 hours ago, Jesse_the_Scout said:

It's a fairly subjective judgement. I don't like how it works because it results in huge damage spikes one moment, useless 0 damage hits the next. It's absurdly random yet still statistically inferior to other shells. For most of the tanks in the game you'd be doing the average player a favor by just removing it because they expect it to do something useful yet it doesn't.

that problem you list though,  willl happen your way. when tank get struck with that shelll, in the turret or front superstructure, and start engine fire on tanks. Jagpanzer, Chrysler, Maus, object 263- you name it. And that is horrid mechanic

I agree with HE doing 0 penetrative ability, but than those unique tank like Leo1, Badger, EBR75, M41GF, excalibur lose out with higher penetrate ammo. Definite, all arta need 0 penetrate HE.

(Rework the damage calculation from (damage/2 - armor thickness) to more like (damage - armor thickness*2)

I think it should be more [(damage/3)-armorthicknes*2] with minimum 5-10% damage maintained arbitrary

 

This means HE does ultimately less damage, to negatively impact HE spammer like T49 or tier 10 TD, FV - while still allow for HE purpose, like reset cap or dealing damage to hull down tank like IS7, or to reliably eliminite enemy with 2HP left 

Bobi_Kreeg

Maybe they want to kill EBR with this.. Idk. But these new HE shells go through wheels. That's the only positive I can see. But then, why don't they just make EBR wheels part of the dmg model, so that shots to the wheels make damage?

In general... 

What's the point of High Explosive shells if they don't actually Explode? Isn't that just another Heat?

 

EBR75 will be buff and nerf. Buff will be its high penetrate HE, defeating obstacle and going through to hit beneath, like tracks, fences, vision block, wheels, scarecrow Etc. Buff again, will be it low base damage HE, now dealing more splash damage in non penetrate, because it small explosion radius now concentrate within tank, not out. 

nerfs will be tires can be hit through. But many times still, tires will be hit through but pass underneath and miss anyway, where now they explode and damage. Shot hits gun, pen because most guns 30-40mm, pass through and miss into the sky, but (now) they would hit gun and explode, splash target. 

There still is an explosion guys. The explosion after, is focused as spall path inside the tank. Rather than explosion detonating outside the tank as radius

 

[Bobi_Kreeg 379]

2 hours ago, Hoenn said:

 

There still is an explosion guys. The explosion after, is focused as spall path inside the tank. Rather than explosion detonating outside the tank as radius

 

Thats how most tanks get destroyed by most projectile types.

Other than kinetic projectiles, there is HESH they can experiment with.

There is no need to fuck up regular HE shells.

[MagicalFlyingFox 1,022]

I can't wait for wargaming to make vast changes to the game so i can uninstall for good.

 

 

 

Okay, so this means they do away with the whole splash mechanic, which means you cannot shoot under a tank to do damage or the track from under them to do damage.

This basically dumbs down the game even more.

[LetsMakeTheMagic 8]

This "spalling" is bullsh*t in my mind since they didn't properly model the inside of tanks like War Thunder. 

Need to test this HE Rework myself but it doesn't look as promising as I thought. Yes the HE Spam (E4, 60TP, JPE100 etc.) is annoying af but it's their own fault implementing unpenetrateable tanks like 705A, Chief etc.

This wouldn't be a problem if the maps weren't designed the way they are. It's okay to have tanks which are impervious when hulldown but then enable the possibility to flank them atleast. 

They only needed to fix this bullsh*t setting tanks on fire with a hit through the commanders cupola. This is ridiculous and makes no sense at all. If an explosion occurs at the cupola it's more likely to kill the crew than making it's way to the fuel tanks.

But in the end they don't really give a shit about the playerbase - this is good on one hand bc. tards on reddit would have ruined the game a long time ago but not listening to CCs makes no sense.

[MagicalFlyingFox 1,022]

All it means is when it doesnt pen, it no longer makes a sphere of explosion (splash) so you can no longer do damage on the engine deck of a Maus by shooting the turret face.

[LetsMakeTheMagic 8]

This "feature" is not exclusive to a Maus.

All the heavily armored vehicles can be damaged by shooting the turret ring and splashing into the weak "deck" armor. Maus is just perfect for this since the engine deck and turret is so stupidly designed. (huge gap between turret face and engine deck + front engine).

Who gives a sh*t about the Maus anyways?

 

[echo9835 167]

Wargaming has this weird obsession with making low caliber HE useful. It's the sort of thing a person who has never played world of tanks might obsess over.

As for the rest of the changes: what the actually fuck are they smoking over there? Opium? Lead paint chips? Turning HE into shitty AP shells won't fix the HE spam problems, reworking armor models to have actual weak spots will. The reason why people shoot HE at heavily armored monstrosities like the 279 E isn't always because they are lazy or stupid, its often because they don't have any other way of doing damage without throwing away their tank. I truly hope they don't go through with this, it will kill half of my favorite tanks in a single patch.

[Wolfskrieg 0]

I really hope that it makes it easier to shoot 279e's and FagVVagonT95s because at the moment you can't damage them hulldown or cresting without using HE.

[Bobi_Kreeg 379]

2 hours ago, Wolfskrieg said:

I really hope that it makes it easier to shoot 279e's and FagVVagonT95s because at the moment you can't damage them hulldown or cresting without using HE.

It does exactly the opposite. It makes them immune to HE. :-) 

[Hoenn 21]

What they are planning,  are making HE shells perform like ram collision damage.  Ram collision damage, sort of works like an HE shell, without the currently detonating outside, it is a focus on area contact. HE 3.0, what they have in mind, is to make HE shell perform like ram collisions. Reading about it in WOT mechanics, it explains it very well. Which is why spall liner always helped in reduction to collision

A few things different still, explosion on misses still generate sphere of damages. But that damage won't effect tank hitbox, it is only for surrounds. Trees, cars, truck, fence, home - all will get blast

The thing with small bore size guns dealing some damage to heavily armor tank, I don't think it is a problem. If a shit T92 light tank with 75mm, does puny 10 HP of damage to hull down IS7 or Chieftainn, is that broken? That is not even 10% dealt. Instead of 0, I think that is better gaming experience. This horribly kill ther DPM, makes spam very little effective at all. But this removes tanks sitting near invincbl spots, on ridge or bunker windw, just bait to get shot at, or being a bully. Also makes cap reset more reliable

 

I have been playing sndbx tester servr because they are giving prize for results. Cash, boosters, yes. I have tested the performance on many things like type 5, conway,  troll game with all HE ammo 50TP prototipo and su130pm. HE damages seem very reduced, but it also seems much more consistnt. HE will literally pass through obstacle now like cars and shed, and still hit for damage, that will defintly buff KV2 and FV and type 5. Conway with derper HESH was doing consisten damage of 60-100 against hevily armor like IS7 and 110E3 frontal. 

[Fulcrous 2,073]

It's 2021 and WG still doesn't know how to balance the game.

The biggest issue being the shit maps and dispersion rn. But god forbid HE doesn't work the way they want it to.

[lavawing 498]

1 hour ago, Fulcrous said:

It's 2021 and WG still doesn't know how to balance the game.

The biggest issue being the shit maps and dispersion rn. But god forbid HE doesn't work the way they want it to.

IMO balancing old/off-meta lines intensively is pretty much the easiest and most straightforward thing to do - not fricking with HE and crew and whatnot

[ZXrage 1,318]

I said this the last time it came up, the problem was almost never the mechanics of HE, it's always been whats on the end of both barrels. The high caliber monsters like the FV and jaegroo flinging high alpha HE and the hulldown tanks with pixel weakspots so you don't have much of a choice but to sling it. I cannot for the life of me figure out why this is still the hill they want to die on. Isn't this like the 3rd attempt already?

[hazzgar 730]

I don't understand why they are doing that? HE spam is not a huge issue in the game. Very few people run crazy amounts of HE shells and when they do they do it for memes and not on all tanks on a regular basis. It's one game in 100+ that I'm annoyed by people shooting HE. I don't understand why OP is crying about HE. Just git gud. 

 

Also if WG wanted to fix problems maybe fix MM? Yesterday I had a T10 game with 7 lights per side + 3 arties. So 5 normal tanks per team. No problems there. The map was Fjords so it wasn't even good for light tanks. 

[Jesse_the_Scout 2,098]

I want to clarify something on this subject.

A core problem is that HE shells scale twice: once with the raw damage value, once with the size of the blast radius. I did a lot of math on this back in the day, and the larger the blast radius, the less damage you lose from seeking out the thinnest armor.

Take a case of a Lowe and Pershing facing another hull down Lowe. Lowe loads HE, it's 420 damage and 1.91m blast radius (6.27 ft in freedom numbers). Typically even with a solid shot you're still going to be about 3 ft from the thin top armor and thus losing 50% of the damage from blast distance. Lowe's top armor is 40mm, so 420/2/2  - 40 = ~75. Too low, but still something. But the Pershing is way worse because the damage is not only lower at 320, but the blast radius is 1.46m (4.79 freedoms). So for the exact same shot, your calculation is now roughly 320/2/3 - 40 = ~ 13. Pointless. If the blast was the same size, it would be 320/2/2 - 40 = ~40. Much more consistent.

Thus, HE damage effectively scales exponentially instead of linearly as the damage value would imply, because two values governing damage are simultaneously increasing. By the time you reach the KV-2's 910 damage 152mm gun, the radius is 3.66m. In the shot mentioned above, the Lowe loses 50% to blast radius, the Pershing loses about 65%, while the KV-2 is only going to lose a paltry 17%. A numerical representation of the damage output isn't 320, 420, 910, but more like 112, 210, 792. The proportion becomes even more grotesque when we add in the armor thickness reduction, and becomes 72, 160, and 752. It's a joke.

I said "increase blast radius", but that was a poor choice of word. It needs to be rescaled. Currently the smallest HE rounds are like 0.33m and the largest (non artillery) is the shitbarn at 5.05m. It should start at more like 1.5m, quickly rise to 3.0m, and then slow after that to maybe 4.0m. At 4m+ aiming becomes quickly less and less important to the point you get the HURR DURR SHOOT effect of HE that a lot of players dislike. The radius is so high that even a bad shot will seek out weak armor halfway across the tank.

Rescaling the blast size would fix a lot of the problem by making HE scale more like a line instead of exponentially. It would be stronger on a Pershing, but be slightly weaker on a nuclear-sized gun that doesn't aim. It would do so while maintaining the basic concept of the shell and still offer an alternative form of doing damage.

[LetsMakeTheMagic 8]

This sounds reasonabe, would be easy to implement and accepted by the larger part of the community.

Instead they engineer some bullshit which actually noone but the biggest bots benefit off of and refuse to address core issues like Tier 10 matchmaking.

 

[GehakteMolen 2,063]

The more i think about this new HE stuff, the more i know, that deep inside Victor Kisly just wants the sturmtiger and is willing to trow it all away, so we can get our big boy!!

WG adding VR crap, which tank?! https://www.gamereactor.nl/video/342723/Sturmtiger+AR+Tracy+Spaight+Interview/

Only once in the enitre game history a tank was teased in a barn, which tank?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmdqBhlZro&feature=emb_logo

And Warthunder also has it:

(a mod i guess? or they really added it?)

So dunt care how much it costs and how much its gonna ruin the game, we all deep inside really want it, AND we need it, the germans also need a balanced tier 10 tank, to fight 279 and chieftain!