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Sandobox, HE 3.0, what people think?

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4 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

Few things show your lack of understanding as good, as this one line. You currently do not need to deal HP-damage to reset a cap. It's perfectly sufficient to just hit the tracks, be that with AP, APCR, HEAT, HE or HESH.

perhaps he shoots low caliber HE at IS7 turrets, only for it to do no dmg (and dmg no module) which thus means he got outcapped ;D

 

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14 hours ago, Hoenn said:

pushing gold spam has occur for years now. By making better scaled premium ammunition from tanks like 52 LIS, which gain monstrous muzzle velocity.  or giving really poor pen to other new ones as GSOR and bourque, making many just spam premium. Also with up armour cupolas and smaller weakness, why not, gold spam. It technicly also a free rammer slot, because less aiming means more firing. quick  firing. I like these HE changes, though I think the  -through-  penetrations need some fixes. I like how they made HE get entirely swallow by tracks at acute angle, or gun mantlet hit. I think it keeps any utility it supposd to have, as long as you aim and actually hit tank box model,  not space armr or tracks or gun. Somethin like LT432 will 9 time of 10, fail to do damage to IS7 turret right now,  back to back 0  damage in training room.  But in sandbo test, it will do damage, if you do not strike  tracks or gun mantle. This is utility, perfect for cap reset or  kill off 10HP guy left. The opportunity people lose in HE spam for free damage, they gain in new oppotunit with HE passes through obstacles or tracks perpendicular, and penetrating hull behind. 

 

And all I heard was excuses. Oh, monitor size. Nice. You tell yourself that. Teal, and you tell others to get good. Nice. People print 4K damage accounts like candy now. 3K is old news, and nice, Mr I tell other to get good, does what people do in tier 8 with 10s. I have been told I can't insult you, fair enough. But I don't have to respect you. You play trash. you speak about understanding, but can't understand nothing yourself to apply it. A professional data analyst forecaster, who ....can affords an 11in monitor. What hot air. You don't deserve to say cliché, get good. 

Get good yourself,  nub

And go ahead, be bullies. That why this forum is same 11 guys, posting for years. Adult fan club, no new guys. Xenophobes 

Like looking at his post history, so many insults. And I say one thing in defense from a blue who hardly manages 2014 damages in his tens, then makes excuses from it right after, and moderator strike. Nice. Like this is 2021, bullying? 

Strong words for 52% 1700 player (with 54% 2150 recents).

I do notice you have a bit of victim complex. Might it be that rather than moderation pulling favourites you're just a shit poster hiding behind an alt?

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Make the Spall Liners work as advertised (actually reduce HE damage by the % it says it should), and HE is no longer a problem.
And also make HE damage reduction from armor (and Spall Liners) count as blocked damage, so the blocking missions become less frustrating.

That's all I want.

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3 hours ago, Panzergraf said:

Make the Spall Liners work as advertised (actually reduce HE damage by the % it says it should), and HE is no longer a problem.
 And also make HE damage reduction from armor (and Spall Liners) count as blocked damage, so the blocking missions become less frustrating.

Spall liners do work. sort of. They only work against non penetrating direct hits. and even then the effect is less than advertised.

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After seeing Daki getting trashed by HE for 1k in a perfect hull down I have to revise my other postings.

This rework needs to happen.

If you are stuck in such a situation it's just toxic. Them not needing to properly aim means you have no chance of hitting their weakspots. This means you either get dumped on or do nothing.

This is especially an issue with tanks like a 60TP and E3 where you have to aim precisly.

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I'm not sure about na, but are the 60tp and e3 dominating there?

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44 minutes ago, Ezz said:

I'm not sure about na, but are the 60tp and e3 dominating there?

No. And hell no. 

And other potential HE spamming tanks (E100, Foch, E4, 268, WZ113GFT, Jagdpizda..) are almost all trash tier.

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I see plenty of 60TPs. For most people it seems to be the only viable way to enjoy T10 heavy gameplay.

Maybe it's not an issue because you don't play t10 hulldown heavies that much? They won't be shooting HE at a E50m.

I understand both sides but it's still toxic. 

 

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So are hull down heavies struggling? Sconq with low mobility and low alpha must be relegated to shit tier with all the HE spam.

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3 hours ago, Ezz said:

So are hull down heavies struggling? Sconq with low mobility and low alpha must be relegated to shit tier with all the HE spam.

on NA @ tier 10 nearly all 150-mm+ guns are either shooting HE or gold. 

s,conqs are hardly seen anymore tbh as the cheiftian/Kran/STB are better, but yes the s,conq would suffer alot with constant 3 arty and being weak to HE spam.

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5 hours ago, LetsMakeTheMagic said:

I see plenty of 60TPs. For most people it seems to be the only viable way to enjoy T10 heavy gameplay.

Maybe it's not an issue because you don't play t10 hulldown heavies that much? They won't be shooting HE at a E50m.

I understand both sides but it's still toxic. 

 

Define "most" people. Stats say only 10% of battles played in heavy tanks are done in a 60TP. How is that "most"?

It's a better E100, so ofc ppl will play it. Everyone likes to blap other tanks for 700+ dmg. But those who spam HE are gimping themselves.

And even if all of them shot HE, it would still be less toxic for the game than Chieftain and 279 are! 

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5 hours ago, Ezz said:

So are hull down heavies struggling? Sconq with low mobility and low alpha must be relegated to shit tier with all the HE spam.

I don't know what you are on about but the glory days of the Sconq are long gone. There are far superior alternatives and yes it's fucked by HE spam. It has exactly three things going for it - good gun handling, DPM and a decent turret. Rest of it is trash. Mobility hurts it the most in the current meta but whatever. I still like it.

Haven't tried the E5 myself post buff but atleast it has some kind of armor going for it if you hide the cupola.

31 minutes ago, Bobi_Kreeg said:

Define "most" people. Stats say only 10% of battles played in heavy tanks are done in a 60TP. How is that "most"?

It's a better E100, so ofc ppl will play it. Everyone likes to blap other tanks for 700+ dmg. But those who spam HE are gimping themselves.

And even if all of them shot HE, it would still be less toxic for the game than Chieftain and 279 are! 

It's my experience from the games I play. Ofc. this doesn't match the statistics I don't play 10k battles a day.

If it would be possible to select Ranked battles you would soon realise the percentage there is much higher than your stated 10%. It would even further increase if the HE of the TP stays the same since the majority of the playerbase learns that it is an easy way to farm ranks without losing credits.

Chief and 279 malding gets old. There is nothing to be done about them. The power creep will steadily take care of them.

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1 hour ago, LetsMakeTheMagic said:

I don't know what you are on about but the glory days of the Sconq are long gone. There are far superior alternatives and yes it's fucked by HE spam. It has exactly three things going for it - good gun handling, DPM and a decent turret. Rest of it is trash. Mobility hurts it the most in the current meta but whatever. I still like it.

Haven't tried the E5 myself post buff but atleast it has some kind of armor going for it if you hide the cupola.

It's my experience from the games I play. Ofc. this doesn't match the statistics I don't play 10k battles a day.

If it would be possible to select Ranked battles you would soon realise the percentage there is much higher than your stated 10%. It would even further increase if the HE of the TP stays the same since the majority of the playerbase learns that it is an easy way to farm ranks without losing credits.

Chief and 279 malding gets old. There is nothing to be done about them. The power creep will steadily take care of them.

Ranked (and cw for that matter) shouldnt matter AT ALL for tank balance!

And HE spamming 60TPs are far less of a problem as hull down tard tanks like Kranv, Chieftain or stuff like 279e (or 430 u before buff)

heck, an 268 v4 is awefull to play, but its still a disgusting tank to fight...

WG now nerfs Fv 4005, but keeps 268, it nerfs 60TP (and type 5, oh noo) while it buffs Chieftain and 279, niiiiice

If daki gets killed by red morons spamming HE, daki should either not play tier 10 or play on a different position... (smart ppl dont play tier 10, because tier 10 = ghetto, but thats hes own fault)

ps: u can not dodge arty, u can dodge HE noobs though...

ps ps: hull down tanks not having a weakspot is also balance wise a terrible idea, for a TD, without turret, its ok, but for anything with a turret, its just stupid, unless said tank has serious disadvantages (like IS7, not suchs good gun, only 6 deg gun depression and 1 tank has to be the best :serb:)

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11 hours ago, Bobi_Kreeg said:

Define "most" people. Stats say only 10% of battles played in heavy tanks are done in a 60TP. How is that "most"?

It's a better E100, so ofc ppl will play it. Everyone likes to blap other tanks for 700+ dmg. But those who spam HE are gimping themselves.

And even if all of them shot HE, it would still be less toxic for the game than Chieftain and 279 are! 

E100 is now situationally better when you don't have to hulldown and can act as a DPM hose with the smol gun

That being said, HE in 60TP is not gimping yourself because the tank has shit enough pen and faces tanks armoured enough that AP/HEAT won't cut it a lot of the time. 0 x 750 is still 0 and 0 is the number you will roll against Chiefs, 279s, hulldown 277s/705As/IS-7s/E100s. What is more, by HE spamming hulldown tanks you...encourage them to fuck off from important positions and prevent or at least stall them from farming your team.

There's a reason full HE 60TP is viable for ranked, though less so in pubs due to faster games.

I shudder at the thought of a tier 10 where the Chief and 279 will get 'balanced' by powercreep. 

11 hours ago, LetsMakeTheMagic said:

I don't know what you are on about but the glory days of the Sconq are long gone. There are far superior alternatives and yes it's fucked by HE spam. It has exactly three things going for it - good gun handling, DPM and a decent turret. Rest of it is trash. Mobility hurts it the most in the current meta but whatever. I still like it.

Haven't tried the E5 myself post buff but atleast it has some kind of armor going for it if you hide the cupola.

It's my experience from the games I play. Ofc. this doesn't match the statistics I don't play 10k battles a day.

If it would be possible to select Ranked battles you would soon realise the percentage there is much higher than your stated 10%. It would even further increase if the HE of the TP stays the same since the majority of the playerbase learns that it is an easy way to farm ranks without losing credits.

Chief and 279 malding gets old. There is nothing to be done about them. The power creep will steadily take care of them.

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On 2/15/2021 at 2:38 PM, LetsMakeTheMagic said:

I encountered an enemy chief there in my 60tp. If I try to aim at his hatch (which no good chief player would allow) I expose my hatches which he has absolutely no problem penetrating.

At the moment I just need to get out quickly - aim the shot somewhere at his turret and get back to safety - easy 300 dmg.

I really want to emphasize this part, as why I think HE in the current form is wrong and needs a rework. The problem when OP tanks take dominant positions and can't be flanked, is not a problem that should be solved with a game mechanics that removes skill from the game (i hope we agree that shooting HE in general area of the target for guaranteed 300 dmg does not require a lot of skill). Damage shouldn't come for free (and that is why everyone who is interested in skillful play has issue with arty in the game)

This is the problem of poor map design (no opportunities to flank dominant positions when hull down tanks take them), and of course imbalanced tanks. 

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15 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

Ranked (and cw for that matter) shouldnt matter AT ALL for tank balance!

And HE spamming 60TPs are far less of a problem as hull down tard tanks like Kranv, Chieftain or stuff like 279e (or 430 u before buff)

heck, an 268 v4 is awefull to play, but its still a disgusting tank to fight...

WG now nerfs Fv 4005, but keeps 268, it nerfs 60TP (and type 5, oh noo) while it buffs Chieftain and 279, niiiiice

If daki gets killed by red morons spamming HE, daki should either not play tier 10 or play on a different position... (smart ppl dont play tier 10, because tier 10 = ghetto, but thats hes own fault)

ps: u can not dodge arty, u can dodge HE noobs though...

ps ps: hull down tanks not having a weakspot is also balance wise a terrible idea, for a TD, without turret, its ok, but for anything with a turret, its just stupid, unless said tank has serious disadvantages (like IS7, not suchs good gun, only 6 deg gun depression and 1 tank has to be the best :serb:)

I want to emphasize "different" position here. There are some key positions on certain maps which you have to play to farm and have a high enough impact. If the HE spam results in agressive tanks sitting in the back sniping it's not the way. We have enough redline Leotards and Progettos already. No need to have sniping 277 and Chiefs aswell. Bots forcing players out of key positions with mindless he spam (without counter play) is toxic.

You have to seperate the kran from the mix though. If it's not using maximum gun depression (which is a hit or miss on most maps) its turret can be penetrated relatively easily with prem ammo. 

36 minutes ago, 3MAJ86 said:

I really want to emphasize this part, as why I think HE in the current form is wrong and needs a rework. The problem when OP tanks take dominant positions and can't be flanked, is not a problem that should be solved with a game mechanics that removes skill from the game (i hope we agree that shooting HE in general area of the target for guaranteed 300 dmg does not require a lot of skill). Damage shouldn't come for free (and that is why everyone who is interested in skillful play has issue with arty in the game)

This is the problem of poor map design (no opportunities to flank dominant positions when hull down tanks take them), and of course imbalanced tanks. 

I agree fully. This is simply not the way to try to "balance" these tanks. 

It's a deep underlying issue in map design. 

 

Edit:

Thanks to the guy who corrected the down vote above. 

This topic is strongly about opinion - there is no right or wrong (except Hoenns posts)

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Imo the issue is if wg should be addressing HE as a balance for hull down tanks prior to addressing map design and the dominance of those hull down spots. Moreover it highlights my view that HE ranks below a number of other balance related issues in terms of fixing priority (specific tanks, maps).

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Again I agree but on the other hand we need to accept what they offer otherwise we need to find ourselves a different game and honestly the competition is shit. 

I think they just go with the low hanging fruit strategy. HE rework is the easiest to implement and most likely to "succeed" and satisfy a greater part of the playerbase.

Arty and map design are a different cup of tea in every aspect and really dangerous for them.

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And who is asking for a stupid HE rework? Who will be satisfied with this? Almost nobody.

Ppl are asking for fixes in MatchMaker, premium ammo, SPGs, wheeled vehicles, map design, clan wars, marathons, reward tanks, premium tanks... You know: the real issues.

If WG didn't start this HE topic, nobody would be talking about it. It's irrelevant in the grand scheme.

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So yesterday WG released two articels regarding the Arty and HE change.

https://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/general-news/sandbox-he-shells-spg-rebalancing-results/

https://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/general-news/he-spg-supertest-may-2021/

 

And as expected these changes are coming to the the game. Starting with the Common Test for Update 1.13 (soon)
But before there seem to be another Supertest where they nerf/buff certain tanks like Type or EBR.

I still dislike the change. So much time and effort wasted in such a little problem. Changing a whole game mechanic, while similar resulst could have been achieved by simply nerfing alpha  or pen of certain HE spam tanks. 

60TP HE spam is a problem? Cut HE Alpha in half.
EBRs HE spam is a problem? Cut its pen to level where I can´t easily pen everything. 
FV HESH is problem? Fuck this tank all along. It has been a shitty game design for years. 

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27 minutes ago, hall0 said:

So yesterday WG released two articels regarding the Arty and HE change.

https://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/general-news/sandbox-he-shells-spg-rebalancing-results/

https://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/general-news/he-spg-supertest-may-2021/

 

And as expected these changes are coming to the the game. Starting with the Common Test for Update 1.13 (soon)
But before there seem to be another Supertest where they nerf/buff certain tanks like Type or EBR.

I still dislike the change. So much time and effort wasted in such a little problem. Changing a whole game mechanic, while similar resulst could have been achieved by simply nerfing alpha  or pen of certain HE spam tanks. 

60TP HE spam is a problem? Cut HE Alpha in half.
EBRs HE spam is a problem? Cut its pen to level where I can´t easily pen everything. 
FV HESH is problem? Fuck this tank all along. It has been a shitty game design for years. 

but wg is incompetent plus if they work lke a large company this means some manager can start a "project" instead of simply someone from the balance department rebalancing some tanks. 

Ironically i hope this update discourages people from playing arty. 

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29 minutes ago, hall0 said:

I still dislike the change. So much time and effort wasted in such a little problem. Changing a whole game mechanic, while similar resulst could have been achieved by simply nerfing alpha  or pen of certain HE spam tanks. 

60TP HE spam is a problem? Cut HE Alpha in half.
EBRs HE spam is a problem? Cut its pen to level where I can´t easily pen everything. 
FV HESH is problem? Fuck this tank all along. It has been a shitty game design for years. 

I agree. And this is exactly what they did (admittedly after a long time, but what else is new) with the Type 5 and Type 4 Heavies - the HE spam was a problem so they nerfed the HE damage into the ground. Of course that made those tanks absolutely trash tier because they have no other ammo options on the derps and the non-derp gun options, particularly on the Type 5 are just bad, but the 60TP and the EBRs in particular would still have plenty of strong points going for them even if their HE was nerfed heavily.

The FV is also just never going to be anything other than broken. When the entire tank is built around a gun that either pens for one-shots or splashes for almost one-shots, it will never be balanced. Kind of like arty.

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