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PlanetaryGenocide

Artillery alternate rounds - Do you use them?

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Now that the patch has been out for a bit, I feel like there'll be some actual opinions on this question.  So for those of us who are dirty clickers for whatever reason and hate themselves enough to still be playing arty in the current patch - Do you use the non-stunning rounds ever? What situations and why? How many do you carry?

In both the M53/55 and 261, I carry 1 AP round for emergency shotgunning at the end of either losing or winning games - it's a free 500-600 damage (and potential meme kill) in either situation as long as you're good at aiming in third person and are minimap aware. 

Haven't really found a good use for the high damage HE rounds yet but you can slap light tanks for 1200 with the 261 using them in certain situations, which is fun.

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Could consider them in situations where stuns don’t really do much. I believe this is harder to recognise than it sounds or it would be figured out by now. 
 

When the map is completely locked down and arty needs to dig something out is the ideal scenario but it rarely ever happens due to EBRs now so the approach of an arty grinding a flank down to be pushable isn’t a scenario that happens outside of organised play. There I can see it getting a lot of use (especially among mid level skill at T10) 

 

I’ve only watched streams of this patch as I haven’t played for quite some time now so I don’t know if those rounds have the benefit of being able to fire in dogfights without cucking your own team over but that’s a potential benefit in a very specific scenario. Stuns are just straight up more effective as far as I can see

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The problem I've found with the "high damage" rounds is that their splash is about half of a stun round - sure, no stun means there's no fear of firing them into an active brawl because nothing will happen to your team, but you better be dead on target or else the round is almost as worthless as a near-miss AP round.

High damage rounds give me giggles for hitting rears and engine decks (or light tanks) though, and I'm still at a 100% success rate for AP shotguns with the exception of one "Screen not penetrated" on an STB-1 from about 100m with autoaim, which isn't quite "shotgun" territory.

Maybe it's just too early still to tell, like you said

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Yeah I think the trick is to treat them as arty rounds pre-stun change, they should still be more reliable in terms of acc than before but much pickier about the armour it connects with. 
 

It’s probably how they should have changed it right away rather than the stun mechanic but since stuns just seem too effective in terms of accumulating impact in comparison so I doubt it’ll have a real change on gameplay.

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On 6/30/2021 at 1:20 PM, PlanetaryGenocide said:

Do you use the non-stunning rounds ever? What situations and why? How many do you carry?

Thanks to grinding out campaign missions I've played a decent number of artillery games directly before and after the patch. My games post patch were entirely with non-stun HE rounds for internal crit missions and interestingly I have averaged very similar DPG to the pre-patch pre-nerf rounds. This indicates to me that you now have to choose between doing similar amounts of damage as before, or doing smaller amounts of damage and assisting your teams direct engagements. A moderate nerf to a class that already had significant issues with influencing solo win rate, high floor - low ceiling.

I think both HE types are viable but not to the point of loading all of one or the other as a playstyle preference. @kolni has a good take on this, it isn't easy to figure out which round to shoot in every situation. Knowing when to support an engagement and when to whittle down key targets is now an important skill. Shell capacity concerns aside I want to have the option open to me to be able to continuously shoot either round depending on the situation at hand. Moving forward I will likely be taking a 50/50 split of stun and damage rounds to random battles, as well as a token AP round or two. For artillery like the Obj 261 with a more limited ammo capacity I think I would start with the previously mentioned split and then adjust over time with small +1/-1 shell increments. 

Also we now have to consider the content and the objective when choosing ammo distribution;

  • What type of game mode are you playing? (Random battles, Frontlines, ranked 10v10, ranked 15v15, clan 10v10, clan 15v15)
  • What tier are you playing?
  • Are you playing solo or in a platoon?
  • What is your objective? (High win rate, marks of excellence, campaign missions, meme'ing/trolling, etc.)

A little tangential to the threads topic but I think the 1.13 patch is a change in the right direction by Wargaming for the class. Artillery has long had the stigma of being brain dead and artillery players being just "clickers". Perhaps controversially here I believe artillery has a place in this game, but is incredible hard to both design and balance. Even now I think triple artillery games are oppressive and unfun, even if the individual contribution and influence of any one artillery player is perhaps at one of its lowest points ever. Adding gameplay choices and changing mechanics to promote skilful use of said mechanics will hopefully eventually lead to the loss of the classes' stigma, and open up space to buff it's performance in the hands of great players while leaving the performance of bad players down in the dust where they would be in any other tank class.

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Been playing the S-51 and the M35/55 for missions (both arty specific on the 260 missions and for the Chimera set). Both mostly with the small gun. I'm so bad at arty, ugh.

I feel that the non-stun rounds aren't very good. Splash radius on the two I'm playing is smaller (not sure if this is the case across the board) and without the stun, near-misses are basically useless. The additional penetration doesn't seem to be enough to reliably increase damage that significantly to make missing out on assist from stun as well. I dabbled with AP on occasion and it is pretty funny when you pen but you really need to pick your shots so it's not going to be viable unless you have Intuition and can swap shells quickly.

I have mostly played with the stun rounds, although that's because most missions I was aiming for were stun missions. I did however try some sets with just the non-stun rounds too for some damage related missions and I do definitely think performance overall is lower as it is much, much harder to get assist and reliable damage with the non-stun rounds.

I am at the moment mostly taking 60-35-5% or thereabouts between the three rounds in these two arties.

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12 hours ago, Balthazars said:

I'm so bad at arty

You're not bad at arty, your arty RNG is just bad :serb:

12 hours ago, Balthazars said:

Splash radius on the two I'm playing is smaller (not sure if this is the case across the board)

I believe it is

 

yeah, your conclusions line up with what I've been experiencing.  Glad I've got all the arty missions done through 260...

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3 hours ago, PlanetaryGenocide said:

Glad I've got all the arty missions done through 260...

I'm totally regretting not focusing missions more last year where I was mostly just derping around grinding some new lines and not really achieving much. My play has actually improved to the point where I have been able to make consistent progress through the 260 missions (whereas it took me an eternity to do the T55A missions), and Chimera set hasn't been too bad either. These changes though make some of the existing arty-related missions an absolute chore, and the HE changes will also make those internal module damage missions a pain too because stun rounds now don't do internal module damage which was, in my experience, the easiest way to finish those missions. Obviously you can still use the non-stun rounds, but with the smaller burst radius, you actually need to land shots consistently, which with some arty is an absolute pain.

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God, I didn't even think of that.  Stun rounds do actually have the capability, but you have to pen with them so that's only realistic on paper tds and light tank butts or whatever.  I got the 260 missions naturally over the course of grinding out the 261 and 53/55, so I didn't really have to worry about it overmuch. 

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I don't play a lot of arty, but I have been carrying about 90% stun, a few damage HE, and 1-2 AP for potential shotguns. Sad to say, my only 2 shotgun attempts with AP bounced. Can't really hit specific parts of a tank unless they are right on top of you, so it's up to RNG.

The stun only missions are still fairly doable, a little bit harder, but anything requiring a combination of assist/damage, etc, is now much, much harder.

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They're adjusting all the arty missions in the next patch (including 279 and Chimera missions)

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33 minutes ago, Panzergraf said:

They're adjusting all the arty missions in the next patch (including 279 and Chimera missions)

Only by 10% for all the relevant missions (stun, damage, criticals) as far as i could see - might be fine for the stun time ones, but going from 8 to 7 critical hits required (especially when the only ammo worth using doesn't cause critical hits on non-penetrations anymore) is basically pissing in our faces.

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7 hours ago, PlanetaryGenocide said:

Only by 10% for all the relevant missions (stun, damage, criticals) as far as i could see - might be fine for the stun time ones, but going from 8 to 7 critical hits required (especially when the only ammo worth using doesn't cause critical hits on non-penetrations anymore) is basically pissing in our faces.

they sould just remove the stupid arty missions, heck they should have never added them in the first place...

Or to self quote from 4 years ago:

  

On 3/30/2017 at 8:10 PM, GehakteMolen said:

The stun thing seems fine (its always a gamble how it works on live)

Imo your idea is sound, the player should however finish in the top 10 of hes team, the real idiots wont be able to play much arty, so be it

Other easy solutions:

  • Ban xvm, once every gets its fair share of arty, right now 50% of the arty shells goes to 1% of the player base, red ppl like arty (they always say) lets see if they still like it
  • Ditch arty missions, many, many people ONLY play arty for the stupid T55 / Obj 260, tier 10 lights mean rework needed anyway, so just ditch arty, give everyone a free crew member / free tokens and remove them, no arty mission = way less players
  • Remove gold ammo for arty, if certain arty becomes to bad, WG can always buff them, but in case of gold HE, its a flat out 100% buff mostly used by lamers / wallet warrior (and heat is retarded anyway)
  • ban arty platoons, most of the really fail games are due to arty platoons....

banning xvm might be a bit harder, but removing mission and gold rounds and not allowing 2 arty in 1 platoon should be easy, and would ease some of the problems, if combined with OP hes solution, it might work

WG sort of banned xvm (anonimyser), removed gold rounds / heat round (they now brought them back....) so they made it a bit better, but it wasnt enough, just ban the stupid platoons and remove missions, thats all it takes to fix it... (they can then even buff arty back to what it was 1 patch ago if needed...)

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On 7/17/2021 at 2:45 PM, PlanetaryGenocide said:

Only by 10% for all the relevant missions (stun, damage, criticals) as far as i could see - might be fine for the stun time ones, but going from 8 to 7 critical hits required (especially when the only ammo worth using doesn't cause critical hits on non-penetrations anymore) is basically pissing in our faces.

The stun duration reductions to the missions seem fine, but yes, the reducing critical hit ones is basically saying "ha ha, good luck!" and the damage reductions isn't much either, probably about the equivalent of 2 stun rounds or 1 direct hit with the non-stun rounds, also a minimal reduction. This stuff is going to be the death of me, I swear.

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Logged in for a while to test out the changes, mostly playing the 40/43.

  • High-damage HE feels like (usually) a trap round. It might feel nicer to hit for 500 instead of 350, but you pay for that dearly. You basically need to pen with these to get a higher damage output out of them.
  • Arty as a class is probably worse all-around, but its most noticeable in pubbie hands. They constantly shoot the wrong ammo so you end up having to deal with damageless, stunless arty that you can keep track of via tracers/minimap/sound detection.
  • Even more concerned that Intuition isnt' default.

I'm really happy with the changes. Arty is a little more fun to play, but also the most trash it has been since that patch cycle back 6 or 7 years ago where they got demolished and you'd only see them every 3-4 games. They literally do nothing.

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The 53/55 seems to still do inordinately well in my hands compared to other arties - it hits more often than the fucking 261 does and I still haven't missed an AP shotgun at close range yet (though I have had several non-pens and bounces)

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