The Full Stealth Build

[sr360 4,987]

Over the last few months, sharp-eyed readers of the forums may have noticed increasing reference to "stealth fighter" or "full stealth" builds on light tanks. This is an exploration of that concept, and the concept of camo torture...

The full stealth build came out of discussions between @CraBeatOff and myself about how to improve the ability of scouts to, well, scout. We were initially trying to mitigate the limitations of the EBR 75 & 90's poor VR, and tested the low noise exhaust on them as a tool to get closer without getting spotted. We soon realized you could pull some rather silly stunts with 50% or more camo. Further theorycrafting on T9 lights ensued. I was already running the T-54 lightweight without a VS, with CVS optics and rammer. Crab suggested dropping the rammer and going full camo -- leaning into a LT's defining strength which is camo on the move, rather than trying to be an inferior MT. And the T-54 Stealth Fighter was born.

With the exception of the T49, my T9LTs were all mired in 2-mark territory. I am historically a terrible 3-marker, being bad at mechanics of shooting, streaky and inconsistent. However, the stealth builds changed that. I have been well above average in playing map positions, understanding spotting and how to tease tanks out of camo. Armed with 6% extra camo, I took the T-54 LT Stealth Fighter for a run... and 3-marked it in very short order. The loadout for the 54LT was CVS, iOptics, LNES.

So it turns out my DPG didn't exactly suffer very much from losing a rammer. The extra camo gave me the ability to stay alive longer, to spot better, and to get shots in from camo. OK, so this worked for the 54 LT which has excellent gun handling and doesn't lose much from dropping VS. What about the 132A?

The Chinese LTs are little-loved. They are inferior versions of the RuLTs, with worse gun handling but better alpha. The 132A has comparable camo to the 54 LT but a more compact frame, so I figure that will let it use bushes better. So here we go. The 132A got CVS, bounty optics, LNES and here were the results:

An even faster 3 mark, and very comparable statistics to the 54LT in terms of DPG and assist - if anything, a little better as I got more comfortable with this setup. A little bit worse WR, but that's statistical noise. 

OK, so the compact Russian and Chinese LTs can make this work, but what about the Fatpanzer 251. That thing is big. It has even better innate camo, but it also has a good gun, so the temptation to play it as a pocket medium is high. But in terms of tools, it also has good base VR. So I put down CVS, bounty optics and LNES on it, got the VR up well past 500, and tried the same tactics. 

OK, I'm sensing a theme here. Again, very comparable numbers. Last up was the AMX 13 90. As an autoloader, surely it needs vert stab. Well, firstly, it doesn't, and secondly, don't call me Shirley. The 13 90 already has stellar base camo, and putting bounty LNES on it just makes the camo silly. The base VR is terrible, though, so I spent some bonds on an improved optics on it, and the mandatory CVS. Let's see how it does...

So... the 13 90 works really well. The clip allows such easy late game burst that you can turn mediocre games into good games, and good games into great. The assist per game is rock steady at about 2500-2600 across all these tanks. 

This build is magic. It allows T9 LTs to really dominate in the vision game, and shrug off MTs. You're not competing with MTs for firepower, you're just dominating the VR game. You, sir, are a camo torturer. You are not seen until 11 minutes into a game, when clean up is warranted and you show up unexpectedly full HP. Tanks die and rage at invisitanks. You are stealth, you strike from the shadows.

[CraBeatOff 5,741]

Also tested and approved on the Bourrasque and K-91. Sorta works on some other MTs but those two work best. 121B is close.

RhmPz, 13 105 and EBR 105 also shine with this build. Most tier prem 8 LTs as well - Hwk30, Senlac and M41D - aka the high VR "balanced by lower camo" LTs. Probably works on some tech tree ones too but I've not tested it - Bat12t and LTTB come to mind.

[sr360 4,987]

2 minutes ago, CraBeatOff said:

Also tested and approved on the Bourrasque and K-91. Sorta works on some other MTs but those two work best. 121B is close.

RhmPz, 13 105 and EBR 105 also shine with this build. Most tier prem 8 LTs as well - Hwk30, Senlac and M41D - aka the high VR "balanced by lower camo" LTs. Probably works on some tech tree ones too but I've not tested it - Bat12t and LTTB come to mind.

Also tested, minus the CVS, on 13 57, T71, and Type 62. The type 62 is the only one I didn't feel like I could make it work, but maybe I will revisit that soon.

I'm working on the HWK 30 with this build now.

[PlanetaryGenocide 676]

The LTTB does pretty well with this too, though I still put CVS in the vision slot instead of the LNES even before the advent of bLNES.

 

and I still maintain that the T49 can scout just as well as the rest of the T9 LT's with this build  

[sr360 4,987]

Just now, PlanetaryGenocide said:

The LTTB does pretty well with this too, though I still put CVS in the vision slot instead of the LNES even before the advent of bLNES.

 

and I still maintain that the T49 can scout just as well as the rest of the T9 LT's with this build  

Sure, if you mount the 90.

[PlanetaryGenocide 676]

21 minutes ago, sr360 said:

Sure, if you mount the 90.

I'll get the scouting done without resorting to heresy!  

Idk I just really like the ninja T49 build a lot.  It's sneaky enough, has hilarious view range and camo breaking, I'm currently running Designated Target + the directive for an extra +4 seconds, and I almost always have time to aim my shots.  

But given that I've managed to bring the T49 mark up a full 10% (83.5-93.5) since I switched the equipment to this, I'm starting to think that maybe I can do the same in the Ltwt as you have... so I might give that a shot instead of fucking around in the LTTB still

 

e: checking the numbers, I don't think I've quite averaged 2400+ spotting over the last month yet, but we'll see how July goes.  Managed 3750 avg assist across 7 battles today with my normal (~1250-1300) DPG, which is pretty decent for me.  Maps were Steppes, Highway, Westfield (twice), Mountain Pass, Cliff, and Studzianski 

[Snoregasm2 646]

11 hours ago, sr360 said:

I'm working on the HWK 30 with this build now.

I traded in my T34 last week for the HWK 30, as I made the HWK 12 work so well with it's insane view range doing missions. The HWK 30 is better at literally everything except size (it can't fit in some bushes) - I like it more than the LT-432 TBH.

I think you can emulate your tier 9 numbers, give or take, over a decent sample size in it. 

I'll let you know how I get on - back from my wedding this week so I'll be playing a bit before I go back to work Monday.

[Balthazars 210]

I can confirm even an absolute idiot at driving light tanks (like me) can do some hilariously funny stuff with this build, and it's made light tanks really fun for me as you realise it becomes possible to actually do scouting instead of always feeling like a gimped medium. For that reason alone, I cannot recommend this enough.

You will struggle for consistency if you don't really understand VR mechanics, and in particular if you don't know maps well in terms of where you can and cannot go to take risks to get spots. For me, the latter I really struggle with in particular so there are lots of maps where I feel locked out and the consistency drops. That said, on any map where there are decent bushes etc. that you can work, 2k spotting is very easy to achieve simply because the extra camo lets you get much closer to enemy tanks without being lit than otherwise. A lot of people just don't seem to expect it. I'm currently averaging between 1.5k-1.6k average assist in the L54lwt with this build, and as noted, I'm really bad in light tanks, so those are amazing numbers.

I think you do also need the improved/bounty equipment to really make it work on some lights, especially those that have low VR or low base camo, but this really actually lets you play scouts as scouts. There's few things more satisfying in this game than out-spotting an enemy light, getting him deleting, and then lazing your way to 6k spotting sitting in a bush while enemy tanks get deleted not knowing how they are getting lit.

In this day and age of WOT, I think this build's biggest selling point is this: it's fun.

[Joyrider216 1,028]

Seeing these builds made me incredibly curious, so I installed tanks and loaded up the LT-432 with CVS, improved vents and optics. I've never had this much genuine fun in WoT before, this is madness. Being able to wiggle around the map at 41% camo and spotting everything at 445m is a power I never knew I wanted. Looking forward to many more LT games and learning the maps and meta all over. Playing as a vision kiter makes a huge difference in that you are no longer trying to be a gimped medium, and instead get to play as an unexpected threat.

[Gryphon_ 541]

I've set up half my lights with CVS/optics/LNES and the other half (mainly autoloaders) with optics/rotation/VS. It's strange how the stealth build seems to work really well at tier 9; I guess its to do with the teams actually being able to shoot at what you spot. Tier 8 (LT432) has some good results but never as good as tier 9 IMHO. Tier 10 I'm not competitive in anything as I don't have improved or bounty equipment on anything apart from  a couple of tanks. However, no surprise to find that vision/stealth works well on the T100LT but not the AMX13105 - I need the gun handling mods to make that work. I sold my Sheridan and WZ132-1 long ago, the first because it was a boat and the second because it never penned.

RIP T49.

Fun times though with this playstyle. I also enjoy watching the SR360/Crab commentary vids. They def deserve more views!

[hazzgar 730]

6 hours ago, Joyrider216 said:

Seeing these builds made me incredibly curious, so I installed tanks and loaded up the LT-432 with CVS, improved vents and optics. I've never had this much genuine fun in WoT before, this is madness. Being able to wiggle around the map at 41% camo and spotting everything at 445m is a power I never knew I wanted. Looking forward to many more LT games and learning the maps and meta all over. Playing as a vision kiter makes a huge difference in that you are no longer trying to be a gimped medium, and instead get to play as an unexpected threat.

I use purple rammer instead of vents just because the tank has such an amazing gun but yes 432 with CVS and optics is pure fun. 

[CraBeatOff 5,741]

7 hours ago, Joyrider216 said:

Seeing these builds made me incredibly curious, so I installed tanks and loaded up the LT-432 with CVS, improved vents and optics. I've never had this much genuine fun in WoT before, this is madness. Being able to wiggle around the map at 41% camo and spotting everything at 445m is a power I never knew I wanted. Looking forward to many more LT games and learning the maps and meta all over. Playing as a vision kiter makes a huge difference in that you are no longer trying to be a gimped medium, and instead get to play as an unexpected threat.

You still play??!!??!? We must platoon sometime.

Thanks @Gryphon_ - the vids are fun but a good bit of work for @sr360. It's good to know a few people are watching us ramble!

[Joyrider216 1,028]

1 hour ago, CraBeatOff said:

You still play??!!??!? We must platoon sometime.

As of last night lol, I need to get my bearings back before I embarrass myself.

@Gryphon_ I'll take the T-54 L for a spin and see how it handles, I'll report back with thoughts.

[H4NI 138]

Meh, this build makes me even more frustrated playing lights... It works pretty well, so you are forced to watch your teammates failing to hit or pen enemies again and again and again. Such a stupid feeling when you do everything perfect, spot 9 tanks and get 250 spotting damage.

Waiting for a LT build which will give me Maus-like HP...

[sohojacques 271]

So still using Turbo on the ELC Even @CraBeatOff? Or trying LNES instead?

T71 with LNES must be a lot of fun.

[hazzgar 730]

10 minutes ago, sohojacques said:

So still using Turbo on the ELC Even @CraBeatOff? Or trying LNES instead?

T71 with LNES must be a lot of fun.

Or maybe Binocs? 

[sr360 4,987]

3 hours ago, sohojacques said:

So still using Turbo on the ELC Even @CraBeatOff? Or trying LNES instead?

T71 with LNES must be a lot of fun.

 

3 hours ago, hazzgar said:

Or maybe Binocs? 

The EVEN 90 we settled on CVS, binocs, turbo. It already has insane camo, and needs the help in other areas.

And, yes, the T71 with LNES is hilarious. I have a few videos of shenanigans in that, notably a run of 3 straight Aces.

[sohojacques 271]

My recollection of the Even with binos was that nothing could move in the open within ~400m of you without getting spotted. But then wheelies happened and their average driver isn’t usually too concerned about being lit. Is Turbo allowing you to somewhat suppress the early game wheelie yolo? (I stopped playing just before new equipment landed)

[hazzgar 730]

18 hours ago, sr360 said:

 

The EVEN 90 we settled on CVS, binocs, turbo. It already has insane camo, and needs the help in other areas.

And, yes, the T71 with LNES is hilarious. I have a few videos of shenanigans in that, notably a run of 3 straight Aces.

Seems like a great idea. Though I'm tempted to try bounty LNES on the EVEN simply for the memes of 54 camo. 

[sr360 4,987]

On 7/11/2021 at 10:53 PM, H4NI said:

Meh, this build makes me even more frustrated playing lights... It works pretty well, so you are forced to watch your teammates failing to hit or pen enemies again and again and again. Such a stupid feeling when you do everything perfect, spot 9 tanks and get 250 spotting damage.

Waiting for a LT build which will give me Maus-like HP...

You mean like here

 

17 hours ago, sohojacques said:

My recollection of the Even with binos was that nothing could move in the open within ~400m of you without getting spotted. But then wheelies happened and their average driver isn’t usually too concerned about being lit. Is Turbo allowing you to somewhat suppress the early game wheelie yolo? (I stopped playing just before new equipment landed)

You’re not wrong. However the T8 wheeled tanks are the 75 and Lynx and they have at best 410 VR and are slow enough for your platoon or hopefully your team to shoot if lit early enough

[Expendable_Lad 752]

Been having a lot of fun with these builds on the Tech Tree M41 and HWK - appreciate the videos and the callout on this fun new approach to LTs!

Man, especially in those 8s, the urge NOT to shoot a wheelie on sight is like suppressing prey-drive in a young retriever.  It's the self-control that makes this build fun and challenging - and unforgiving. Oi!

[PlanetaryGenocide 676]

4 hours ago, Expendable_Lad said:

It's the self-control that makes this build fun and challenging - and unforgiving. Oi!

Definitely this!  Although I'm actually having the opposite problem sometimes - I'm too passive and give up on easy damage that I otherwise could farm (in both the LTTB and the T49).

Of course sometimes when I do shoot I get it wrong and get instantly removed from the game, so... balancing act.

I almost want to run xvm just to use ratings as a gauge of what kind of crew skills and equipment enemy light tanks are likely to have, because it's a pain in the ass to play like everyone's running CVS builds, and it sucks to get absolutely potatoed by someone who is built in a way you didn't account for.

[sr360 4,987]

8 hours ago, PlanetaryGenocide said:

Definitely this!  Although I'm actually having the opposite problem sometimes - I'm too passive and give up on easy damage that I otherwise could farm (in both the LTTB and the T49).

Of course sometimes when I do shoot I get it wrong and get instantly removed from the game, so... balancing act.

I almost want to run xvm just to use ratings as a gauge of what kind of crew skills and equipment enemy light tanks are likely to have, because it's a pain in the ass to play like everyone's running CVS builds, and it sucks to get absolutely potatoed by someone who is built in a way you didn't account for.

Crab’s First Rule of Scouting: the best counter to good scouting is bad scouting.

[CandyVanMan 526]

Ran this setup and finally got the 3rd mark on T49.

This was my last session in T49, 4.8k combined.

[Gryphon_ 541]

As this build allows you to push the limits of view vs camo, sometimes in the open, if you use xvm try adding this line to the minimapCircles.xc file in your config.

{ "enabled": "{{my-vtype-key=LT?true|false}}", "distance": 300, "scale": 1, "thickness": 0.7, "alpha": 60, "color": "0xFF0000" },

This draws a red circle at 300m radius on the minimap if you are playing a LT. The significance of 300m is that 500m of view range will break 45% camo at 298m, so its a good tool to use to figure out what the other team is rocking. I find having that circle makes it far easier to fine tune how far I can go towards a likely enemy position.