Kranvagn Nerf

[Panzergraf 68]

Most of you have probably heard by now, but the Kran and Emil II are being nerfed.
https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2022/06/30/supertest-vehicle-rebalancing/amp/
 

There are other changes announced too, like buffs to some French heavy tanks, but the Kran nerfs are the big news here.
Too much? I think so. This will do little to change how annoying it is to face a hull down Kran, but will make the Kran driver just as annoyed themselves that they can't hit anything anymore. Or get anywhere.

[Expendable_Lad 753]

1 hour ago, Panzergraf said:

Most of you have probably heard by now, but the Kran and Emil II are being nerfed.
https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2022/06/30/supertest-vehicle-rebalancing/amp/
 

There are other changes announced too, like buffs to some French heavy tanks, but the Kran nerfs are the big news here.
Too much? I think so. This will do little to change how annoying it is to face a hull down Kran, but will make the Kran driver just as annoyed themselves that they can't hit anything anymore. Or get anywhere.

Yeah, that's about my take too. Maybe I'll try the French heavies now, but this just seems like it will make the Kran more frustrating to play while still being frustrating to play against. 

[Balthazars 210]

The Kran and Emil are tanks which are designed around basically being invincible on a ridgeline, so I don't think there's a way to balance them when that is the entire design of the vehicle. That said, the nerfs appear to be too much in my opinion. Nerfing either the gun or the mobility on its own is probably enough to pull it into line with other heavies, doing both will probably make it kind of trash. Personally I think nerfing the mobility (heavies going 60kph is really just a dumb idea) and then maybe the DPM is probably good enough to bring it into line.

What's of more interest to me is seeing that they plan to look at the M103 and T32. Having recently ground through those tanks, they are - in my opinion - in an okay spot and don't actually need much work. The T32 could maybe use a slight penetration buff but that's really about it. They get good DPM and good gun performance which is generally enough to be competitive.

Also, do mine eyes deceive me, and will they FINALLY nerf the M44 and make low tiers semi-playable again?

[ZXrage 1,318]

4 hours ago, Balthazars said:

 What's of more interest to me is seeing that they plan to look at the M103 and T32. Having recently ground through those tanks, they are - in my opinion - in an okay spot and don't actually need much work. The T32 could maybe use a slight penetration buff but that's really about it. They get good DPM and good gun performance which is generally enough to be competitive.

Hadn't they already buffed those tanks semi-recently? I was also under the impression that they're fine already. The M103's glaring weakness was already fixed with the turret buff so any more would tip it towards unbalanced imo. Its hull was workable and its gun is already good (and has good pen values too) so I don't even know what kind of buffs WG would look for. I think the T32 is a touch too sluggish and it's pen too low but otherwise fine, if they were gonna give it a new gun they might as well have buffed the alpha to 360 so maybe that's what they're gonna do

[Balthazars 210]

11 minutes ago, ZXrage said:

Hadn't they already buffed those tanks semi-recently? I was also under the impression that they're fine already. The M103's glaring weakness was already fixed with the turret buff so any more would tip it towards unbalanced imo. Its hull was workable and its gun is already good (and has good pen values too) so I don't even know what kind of buffs WG would look for. I think the T32 is a touch too sluggish and it's pen too low but otherwise fine, if they were gonna give it a new gun they might as well have buffed the alpha to 360 so maybe that's what they're gonna do

I guess 'recent' is relative given how long it's been since WG touched specific tanks, but from memory yes, they were one of the last lines to be buffed significantly, but even that was in 2020 if I'm not mistaken (I did the line in late 2021).

I suppose those buffs weren't enough for the pubbies, as looking at Tomato.gg, it has he 4th worst win-rate of the tech tree tier 8 heavies (the worst is the AMX which is being buffed too, but the forgotten children are the VK 45.02A and the O-Ho which are both doing worse than the T32) in the last 60 days. The M103 is actually last of the tech-tree tier 9 heaves for 60-days (at least on NA, on EU it is second last). Seems this might be driving the decision.

[hall0 1,095]

I hate WG's way of nerfing stuff. 

First it takes ages. Second they always nerf it to the ground. Instead of doubt little steps. And third in many cases it does not solve the problem. 

Kran will be still annoying to deal with. But now also annoying to play. Seems like WG solution for all hull down tanks. Shitty gun handling but invincible when hull down. We saw this now many times in the recent releases. 

And what really bugs me was this statement. Emil II "In terms of performance, this vehicle does not stand out as much as its older counterpart. However, to keep our changes consistent bla bla huge nerf" 

I don't care about consistency. If it is not as OP as his older counterpart do not nerf it the same amount. It is not about consistency it is about game balance. At least mobility nerf won't hit that tank so hard, cause power to weight is trash here and without turbo it won't ever reach topspeed unless going down hill. 

[Balthazars 210]

So the proposed changes to the M103 and T32 seem like they will make them even nicer to play if you know what you're doing. Especially the T32, looks like it could become one of the best tech tree tier 8 heavies.

They apparently want to absolutely gut the T29 with the 105mm gun as well, especially in regards to its DPM (base DPM will go under 1,500, lol).

AND HUZZAH, THE M44 IS (HOPEFULLY) ACTUALLY GOING TO BE NERFED!

 

[echo9835 168]

I can't really wrap my head around the T29 nerf. I really don't think it's all that overpowered. The T29 has a roof weakspot and is super slow and squishy outside of the turret face. Dealing with it was always a matter of flanking or waiting for the driver to get bored and move from his hulldown spot. I feel like this nerf came from the mind of a 45% supertester who shot one in the gun mantlet 200 times in a row.

Also they should give the M44 the new HE just to spite fuck M44 mains

[hall0 1,095]

Are you for real? T29 has been the go to T7 heavy for like forever. 

It has a T8 gun with very good hull down capabilities. Turret weakspot is tiny. Turret is even strong against higher tiers. 

Even the weak hull is fairly strong against lower tiers. 

If I have to name an overperforming techtree T7 it is either the SU100M or T29. 

 

[echo9835 168]

Fair point. The T29 is overperforming, but I just dont see average or below average players dominating in it. The T29 isn't overpowered in my mind because it is very easy to avoid it's strengths and exploit it's weaknesses. I just don't see people getting slaugtered by T29s without being able to fight back.

[kolni 69,670,872]

On 7/8/2022 at 4:09 PM, echo9835 said:

Fair point. The T29 is overperforming, but I just dont see average or below average players dominating in it. The T29 isn't overpowered in my mind because it is very easy to avoid it's strengths and exploit it's weaknesses. I just don't see people getting slaugtered by T29s without being able to fight back.

You need to put yourself in the shoes of the 48%er who doesn't realise that engaging a tank in its preferred terrain is a bad idea. The T29 is the first tank you'll come up against when climbing the tech trees that has situations where it's almost immune to taking damage. Pubbies don't consider leaving it alone and doing something else a viable option, so it's too simple to play and too strong as a result. It's honestly overdue, even if the tank gets outperformed by a good player in many tier 7s. Even the AMX M4 45 was stronger for a good while IMO but it's so hard to play right that it'd never catch on for the average player. It's just too easy to play it at an acceptable level that the average player will find frustrating to play against. I'd understand if you were stuck with a typical mid tier US gun (240 alpha, decent pen but expensive shells and good handling) but higher alpha generally means simplified gameplay and in this case absolutely so. You just have to dig yourself in, preaim and the average village idiots are going to lose a 3v1 into that. 

I like the T32 buffs though, I really liked that tank before the 357 stuff and powercreep with the big gun. It was back when the 110 was almost an equal to the IS-3 so it's reaaally long ago, but it's pretty much been since then it felt playable so nice to see it get some love

[Balthazars 210]

I think the stats show that the T29 is still over-performing, although probably not as much as in the past (many of the tier 7 heavies are actually quite good and competitive these days). As others have noted, the main issue is that it's strengths are just so well-defined and also just so strong that if you're up against a horde of new players, you can use those to grind the opposition into the dust. For me, I found the low DPM, slow speed and turret, and the arty-spam in particular to just ruin the fun in playing it.

I really, really, really hope however that the nerf for the M44 is just the start for nerfs to low-tier artillery. Most of the tier 6 arty are just absolutely overpowered disgusting filth and the main reason I stopped playing tier 5 or tier 6 (the latter in particular I used to enjoy, but not anymore). Having 3 arty per game and the majority of them being M44s, the AMX and the FV304 just sucks the fun right out of the game. All of them need, at a minimum, a nerf to their DPM but also probably to their HE damage. Obviously the M44 is the big outlier and the main issue (more than double the number of games as the next tier 6 tank, and the second most played tank in the entire fucking game on NA) but it's not the only problem. I want these arties nerfed so bad.

[Panzergraf 68]

As for the T29, I think it would be best to just have it and the T32 just trade places in the tech tree. Historically the T32 only had a 90mm, which would be easier to balance for tier 7.

[lavawing 498]

On 7/9/2022 at 5:39 PM, kolni said:

You need to put yourself in the shoes of the 48%er who doesn't realise that engaging a tank in its preferred terrain is a bad idea. The T29 is the first tank you'll come up against when climbing the tech trees that has situations where it's almost immune to taking damage. Pubbies don't consider leaving it alone and doing something else a viable option, so it's too simple to play and too strong as a result. It's honestly overdue, even if the tank gets outperformed by a good player in many tier 7s. Even the AMX M4 45 was stronger for a good while IMO but it's so hard to play right that it'd never catch on for the average player. It's just too easy to play it at an acceptable level that the average player will find frustrating to play against. I'd understand if you were stuck with a typical mid tier US gun (240 alpha, decent pen but expensive shells and good handling) but higher alpha generally means simplified gameplay and in this case absolutely so. You just have to dig yourself in, preaim and the average village idiots are going to lose a 3v1 into that. 

I like the T32 buffs though, I really liked that tank before the 357 stuff and powercreep with the big gun. It was back when the 110 was almost an equal to the IS-3 so it's reaaally long ago, but it's pretty much been since then it felt playable so nice to see it get some love

M4 45 will be even more godly now - I might jump back into the game to grind for 3k combined on a tier 7. 
Just picture it: 330 alpha on a ~7 second reload, best in class bloom, a 160 EA UFP on flat ground, 200 EA turret, 1450 HP to trade with on a platform that goes 40 everywhere with turbo. they do this.......and nerf the T29 🙃

also, depending on the mantlet changes, the M6 might actually be one of the strongest tier 6 heavies and possibly the strongest on the line. 200 EA is enough to keep short 8.8 APCR out, plus it's now got more competitive DPM
 

[Guardian54 80]

Well as QuickyBaby revealed in his new video on the Minotauro, it's just a switch of flavour of the year.

Because that thing is a Kranvagn crossed with an E3.

Seems my rarely playing WoT anymore was a very sensible decision after all.