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Elvenlord

Which is more accurate (a discussion on the ease of being Purple)

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The context of this question is as follows. TalonV posted on the official forums (the relevant posts are towards the last couple of pages) that he had finally managed a blue 60 day win-rate. This lead to a discussion on skill cap.

 


I'm actually thinking you have the opposite side of the Dunning-Kruger effect working against you. There are a lot of people who actually do what you suggested, but they just are not capable of playing at that level. Some people lack the skill, and may never be able to gain it. I believe that, because you are so good at this game (by comparison with the average player), you think that many others will be able to play at or close to your own skill level if they just have a "cool mindset", but statistically that is extremely unlikely. Basically, you are underestimating your own skill relative to others.

Just my thoughts. If you're looking at it from an "average" player's POV, stats like yours are definitely outside their capabilities.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, by the way. Not being great at a certain game is not a problem at all, as long as you are enjoying playing! If the average player was capable of playing closer to your skill level, the average wouldn't be where it is.

 

 


Simple trick of being good at this game is all mindset, I had 3 days in a row where I was angry and frustrated, guess what?

I got an average of 45% win rate with 1 - 1.1k win 7 for those days.

 

Basically, I want to know ya'lls opinion on this. Who is right? And why? Or are they both right to varying degrees?

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TalonV is bad. In any case, it's not hard to achieve blue (or even purple) status, merely because the game is much easier now than it was before. Not to mention, most ratings are outdated by now due to the recent changes to the game that have made it more 'mainstream' and easy to digest for the playerbase.

 

Besides which, being purple is pretty much pointless at this point. There are a lot of purples who have their heads far too up into their asses to realize.

 

edit: on the notion that being in a bad mood influences your performance ingame - definitely true. Stop playing if tonks starts getting on your nerves.

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Why is being Purple pointless? Does it no longer show being on the upper end of the skill spectrum?

 

weird fascination with measuring skills, ease to manipulate, does not accurately represent what being extremely good at the game means.

 

on top of that, nobody can agree what it means to be good at this game. you'll notice there's a distinct lack of agreement on who is really good at this game because the most vocal 'unicums' are too fixated on either damage or win rate.

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Being purple doesn't mean much anymore. 

 

Neither does deep purple, deep-deep purple (2500-2600 WN7 and higher over 60 days) might though. 

 

It's really about your track record in tournaments or championships these days.

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You seem to consider Win-rate to not be the definition of skill. Why?

 

To mean it seems that Win-rate would be the ultimate measure of skill in this game, as the goal is to win, I understand that there are ways to "game" it, so to speak, through the use of exclusively sprem/preferntial MM/Unicum Platoons/TCs, but even the use of those requires a certain level of base skill and understanding of mechanics in order to pull off the highest end win-rates.

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You seem to consider Win-rate to not be the definition of skill. Why?

 

To mean it seems that Win-rate would be the ultimate measure of skill in this game, as the goal is to win, I understand that there are ways to "game" it, so to speak, through the use of exclusively sprem/preferntial MM/Unicum Platoons/TCs, but even the use of those requires a certain level of base skill and understanding of mechanics in order to pull off the highest end win-rates.

 

Because you can run a platoon of the 3 most OP tanks in its tier, cap fast every 4 games and very well be mediocre at this game. There are a lot of examples of players with high win ratios that perform awfully once they stop platooning.

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You seem to consider Win-rate to not be the definition of skill. Why?

 

To mean it seems that Win-rate would be the ultimate measure of skill in this game, as the goal is to win, I understand that there are ways to "game" it, so to speak, through the use of exclusively sprem/preferntial MM/Unicum Platoons/TCs, but even the use of those requires a certain level of base skill and understanding of mechanics in order to pull off the highest end win-rates.

WR is so heavily influenced by platooning / TC that it isn't that valuable. Other stats such as damage etc are a direct result of your actions, but even those can be gamed. 

 

How could you compare someone who platoons to 80% wins, and someone who solo's at 65%? You'd have a tough time looking for a crossover in skillsets to even compare. 

 

At this point, stats are good for E-peen stroking and for math lovers. Just look at the wn8 dev thread, you can tell those guys are enjoying themselves.

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This is rambling and incoherent, but I think there's a point in here somewhere.

 

I'm a baddie compared to these guys, but I try harder than the average schmuck and it shows. My 60 day indicates purple, but players on my level are, in reality, complete crap when compared to players with 2200+ WN7

What it has taken me to get where I am is not supreme dedication, but some conscientiousness and willingness to learn and take criticism. That's about it.  I play the game for fun, but I play to win, because winning is fun.

 

The reason many very bad players never improve, however, isn't that they are incapable of improving, but that they quite simply don't try to play well.  We have ALL played online games where we don't really try very hard, and suck in one way or another, no? And why don't they actually try to play well?  Because they think they are good, and they don't know what good looks like on a consistent basis. They may or may not care, of course. But for a player that has a hard time pulling their own weight and doesn't understand why, it will seem very logical to them that they are on fail teams. What they're not realizing is that they are the missing link, and with some study and practice, they could win a few percent more games without making any enormous effort.

 

I will say that it is fairly easy to become dark green. IMO, dark green is around the level where someone "gets" the game.  They may not be a strong, decisive, consistent player, but they have a reasonable idea of what they should be doing, if no idea how to make it happen most effectively. They know hot spots on maps. They know to generally not poke and take 3 shots to shoot once. They know to angle their armor - possibly well, probably not amazingly well. They know how to bait shots, will have a basic understanding of the maps and tanks, so they don't get pissed off when their KV-5's AP round bounces the upper plate of a T

 

Going beyond that seems to take effort.  

 

I would say that some people are naturally good at games, and I believe that it is true.  For a lot of us on here, playing a game reasonably well comes naturally, due to the self-selecting nature of the crowd here.  But there are aspects of gameplay that some people are just slower in assimilating, not to mention basic mechanical skills that can definitely affect your ability in this game, albeit not as much as a fast paced shooter. WoT is somewhat different than a game without armor/penetration/byzantine camo systems. So getting to that basic level of competency is harder, and exploiting it is even harder, due to artificial limitations the game places on you. Most "good" gamers will quickly get the notion that they want to minimize the time they spend exposed to oncoming fire, so they learn to peekaboo to some level of effectiveness very quickly, while others that are less comfortable in the realm of an action game will not catch on to these basic things as quickly.

 

So everyone hits a different level where their natural skills limit their play, and where learning needs to take place.

 

Sometimes, it's a matter of a light bulb event.

 

A while ago, there was someone that posted on here looking for advice. I looked at his stats, made some educated guesses as to why he wasn't effective in the game, and told him to get back with some replays.

 

He never posted replays.

 

Why?

 

He watched them and realized that he was doing stupid things. So he started playing better.

 

The next half is discipline. A very small half.

 

Since I switched shifts, my play has gotten significantly worse.  I figured out why: I work a lot harder on first shift than on second, and I tend to be in a state of sleep deprivation now.  I jump on during the weekend, well rested, and play so much better that it isn't funny. Why is this? I'm more aware, more disciplined in game, and make better decisions due to being mentally fresher.

 

The best players would play 5 games at my "bad" level and go "Shit, I can't play tanks tonight, my game is garbage!" and then stop.  But I don't. I run 10, or 20 games or whatever, even if I am tired, running on 3 hours of sleep, and BAM, I suck.

 

So the best players are very disciplined in game, very aware, and when they're not in their best mental states, don't play as much as some of us scrubs do.

 

Short version:

  • It is fairly easy to play above average, IMO
  • I don't think it's super easy to get to purple 60day or overall.
  • It takes significantly more for many people to move beyond that
  • Awareness of one's skill level, or lack thereof, is often required before you really play well
  • When you realize you're not playing well, this fact in and of itself can help you play better, but you may need some outside help
  • Discipline in game is very important - at some point, you will see most of your own errors - and at that point, getting better is more about finding and eliminating those errors before they happen, rather than "Oh, what the hell, I'll flank this guy, seems like a good idea", it's "Well, three of their big TDs aren't spotted yet and while nobody has been spotted where I will be flanking this guy, I'll hold off on that as the risk is too high".
  • Discipline out of game can be just as important, when playing at your best level requires heightened awareness, you can't play as well in a poor mental state.
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 You'd have a tough time looking for a crossover in skillsets to even compare. 

 

 

Very true. I soloed my first 8k games or so. Since then, I have had a healthy mix of platoons and solo pubbing. I have to say, platooning can greatly accelerate the learning curve of new players but platooning and solo pubbing often do require different mind sets and skills. As I have improved in this game and had experience in both situations, I play differently depending on whether I am in a platoon or solo. For example, if I am solo pubbing, I generally want to sit back and let my pubbies take a bunch of damage for me because I don't have the assurance that if I take a high risk/high reward spot that my back will be covered by a competent tanker. If I was in a platoon, I could communicate with the platoonmate and decide to try and hold that spot with him covering for me.

 

Platooning can also be interesting because people have different playstyles. I have a number of friends in game that I will chat with in TS but have found that I don't jive well with. For whatever reason, our playstyles being different or maybe the same, we just don't perform well in a platoon. For that reason, the crossover statement is very true. I feel I perform better solo pubbing, ie my WN7 is better BUT my winrate suffers. This is why I think it would be interesting for platoon versus solo pub stats to be released. Not so much to bash people that platoon or solo pub but just to better understand the type of success people have in both environments.

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I am not even sure if I am going to be able to phrase this right (this is my third attempt at writing this post)

 

So what you are saying is that in the end reaching goals one sets for oneself is more important than stats?

 

What you consider being the top end of skill? My personal view is the tournaments, as that negates the Diplo work of CWs, but still pits the teams against other teams of equal skill.

 

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Win rate is related to skill but it doesn't mean everything, it reflects largely how you choose to play the game.

 

For example, I platoon fairly heavily, and only occasionally do TCs. In TCs I have the best win rate, followed platooning, and worst would be soloing. I don't do tourneys as I enjoy pub play. But it goes further than that; the tanks you choose to play will be a huge factor too.  If someone can manage to get a 60% win rate in a Pz38NA over 1000 games, I would be astonished. But I would not be astonished for someone to acheive that in a T49 or KV-1, whereas I can solo >60% in the T49 without issue.

 

Someone with my skill level playing solo will tend to run in the 53-62% WR range, depending on the tank.

 

Someone with my skill level, playing triple IS-6 platoons, will run70% if we did nothing but IS-6.  Or closer to 80% with 2 T49 + good heavy.

 

Stick me in a tier 10 platoon?  Yeah, good luck with that.  The competition is tougher, and I'd be happy to sit at 60%!

 

Take a group of people on my level, add a good caller, and run nothing but medium TCs? The sky is the limit.

 

Win rate is an output. You put things in, and a number comes out - how many games you win.  But you need to consider how that someone is getting to that number if you want to apply a huge amount of value to it.  My 59% overall says something about me. I'm an OK player. But I'm probably below average for 59% players! Anfield is so much better than me that it's a joke.  And you know what? He has a lower overall WR than me. And he has a lower 60 day WR than me.  But what does that mean? Not much. His average tier is 9.25 in the last 1k battles, mine, well, you can see it in my sig.

 

Tourney play and CW play are different - tourney would probably be the best place to really see who the best is as it takes politics out of the deal, but CW battles are a different matter entirely. But I don't do tournies.

 

Never forget something: This is a game, and it is up to you to decide what you want out of it.  Most of us here believe that stats tell much of the story, but they aren't everything (Again, going back to the WR notes I made) - FCing is another skill for which there is no number value. And as noted above, there are a lot of soft "stats" such as tanks played that make WN7 less effective than WN8 will be as a skill measure.  But even that won't be perfect.

 

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...

 

So what you are saying is that in the end reaching goals one sets for oneself is more important than stats?

...

No - the first step for the mayority of tankers is to see and understand that they play terrible. Not everyone can perform in the top 1% area or near it for various reasons. But admitting to yourself that there are guys out there who wipe the flor with you on a regular basis. Next step is to try and understand the basic game mechanics, if you are at least a little bit compatitive. That alone will increase the WN-Rating of a baddie up to 400 points.

 

...

What you consider being the top end of skill? My personal view is the tournaments, as that negates the Diplo work of CWs, but still pits the teams against other teams of equal skill.

Tournaments are so different from any other WoT format because of the rules, that I dont even know where to start. Rules for a victory, tank composition in a team, tactics ... .

 

There are teams out there (EU/RU) who only play eSport and are good at it and great players in their own realm, but they sometimes dont belong to the best pub players. Its like olympic swimming - there are short ditances, middle and long; different styles ... .

 

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If I can offer my 0.02...

Once we get to a certain skill level, at anything, it begins to become second nature to us. For example, back when I was a 46%er, and trying to improve, I had to give it my all to get 1 night at 49%. Now days, I'm left disappointing when playing at a 49% level, because I know i can do better then that. I'm guessing the same thing happens to purples, but on a higher scale. Like, if a purple played a night at say, 57%, they'd walk away from that disappointed, where as some scrub like me would be bouncing around the room with glee. As for TalonV... blue isn't anything to be ashamed of, good for him.

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Personally I believe that your overall stats for "soloing" would be the ultimate measurement of skill because you are going to be tested in more ways than if you are platooning with other highly skilled players.  I have only solo'd in this game, and find myself on top of the leader boards more games than not, and I only started playing a few months ago on and off.  Any 3 people can "pad" their stats when playing in a platoon with other skilled players.  I find myself having to play at a higher "mindset" playing solo, because situation awareness is only going to be my responsibility when playing solo play, and I can only really on myself to hold key areas of the map, vision control, spotting, and dealing out as much damage as possible.  But this is just my opinion because I have not had the luck to platoon with other players.  

 

Cheers. :)

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Guess I'll add a sports analogy.

 

The Florida Panthers (at or near the bottom of the NHL most years over the last decade) will beat pretty much any team below the NHL level in a 7 game series. The Panthers are all good hockey players against 97% of the hockey playing world, but the top 3% are in the other 29 NHL teams. That is why they miss the post season 9 times out of 10.

 

A team of purples will pretty much beat any team of greens in a 7 game series. Once you start assembling 2 teams of purples, however, that is no longer true. Look at the G vs Purple war just recently.

 

Performing against pubs, who average "yellow" will get you to purple if you are good. Performing against other purples, however, is a completely different game. Being at an elite level against elite opponents is nothing like being at an elite level against average players.

 

 

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Why is being Purple pointless? Does it no longer show being on the upper end of the skill spectrum?

 

Eventually stat padding in T6s will get boring, then T8s; after a while what's the point padding of stats.  At this point i just toon with people I enjoy BSing with and tanks I enjoy.

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Before i started platooning around 10k battles I was at 58% WR..65%+ in certain tanks.

 

I am A LOT better then I was then...but i still probably couldn't push past 65% solo on average over thousands of battles.

 

 

Let me put it this way...playing like a green everyone should be able to do.  Most should be able to play like a blue if they try hard.  And I don't believe everyone has the capacity to be purple.

 

 

 

I did progress much faster then i would have continuing to play solo by platooning with better players though.  MaxL was the one that pretty much told me how terrible I was so I got better because it pissed me off..

I'm glad I haven't hit a skill ceiling yet...all my numbers are on a sharp climb.

 

 

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Eventually stat padding in T6s will get boring, then T8s; after a while what's the point padding of stats.  At this point i just toon with people I enjoy BSing with and tanks I enjoy.

I've come mostly to this point as well.

 

However, when I first started out I was lucky to come from a gaming community that happened to have a presence in tanks (5-20 people came from KHR wayyyy back in the day) and I was able to dick around and still somewhat learn from them.  At about 2k games I took this game much more seriously and tried to do as best I could and catch up to one of the better statistically players that routinely played with me.  When I got to the point where I was routinely beating him in xp/game (cause that's the most important stat, rite guiz?) I looked around for the next highest person to beat out.  That took me another 1k games or so.

 

Keep in mind, this was me beating a good mostly solo 56% player; then looking around I saw Garbad on the main forums.  I ignored his troll shit and looked at what he was doing better than I was, where I was lacking the most.  I watched his replays; and became a damn good super aggressive player.  I think half of that was luck that I picked a good line to be super aggressive in (lol churchill armors vs. idiots) and did great.  When I was consistently within 1-2 shots of damage per game of him, I looked around since I saw the limitations that the playstyle had for me and tried to see what else I could find.  This took another 1-2k games.

 

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I found many of Kewei's replays (and somewhat lately AntonioHandsome's ability to farm damage.  I was able to mostly replicate it, and get to a lot of that level but I saw how much effort I would have to put into each game and how really little fun I was having (becoming half-assed proficient with that was only about 1k games ago and took about 3-400).  

 

The sky is the limit, but it takes months of dedication to really improving yourself.  I could probably become a 2500 60d player; but I would stop having fun.  At this point I've gained the skills and awareness, I just try to maintain what I've got and I now use my stats to base myself out without forgetting to focus on things that originally were found to help win the games.  I'll go a while staying my original super aggressive self and forget about cap and lose a couple, but it'll come back to me.

 

I think anybody can become a light purple, but most won't.  It does require a lot of work if you don't have the inherent pattern recognition situational awareness to know what you should do; but it's possible.  Becoming deep purple is something that most people simply can't do.  If they don't have the mental fortitude to pressure yourself every match.

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  Becoming deep purple is something that most people simply can't do.  If they don't have the mental fortitude to pressure yourself every match.

 

 

What pressure? All thats really needed is the same bank of experience that anyone builds up when as they learn the game, it's how you construct and integrate your intuitive gameplay that gives it all meaning.

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A certain element of the stats "conundrum" nowadays is that it has become more about the stats themselves, rather than the gameplay. In other words, in an effort to meet arbitrary number/color requirements, people will worry about what tank to pick, who to platoon with, how many tank companies to run, etc, rather than simply improving their general gameplay in order to have that improvement reflected in their stats.

 

It is much easier to drop 200-300 games on the T49, solopub it at 65-70% and run 2k+ wn7 everyday for a few weeks to pull your wn7 up, than it is to work at your gameplay over 400-600 games, and manage that same level in all of your tanks, in general.

 

This shows itself in some of the discussions around what it means to be purple, and some of the unicums' hatred toward "padders" who work themselves up by playing nothing but KV1S/Old PZ4/sherman, Hellcat, T49, etc.

 

For me, though I realise my personal thoughts on the matter are a drop in the bucket, if you're purple you're purple, and that's dandy, but no one really gives two shits what color you happen to be, other than yourself. If you set yourself the goal to get to 1700 wn7, and you do so through nothing but KV1S games and you're okay with that, then fine. The issue arises when these people start putting themselves on a level with people who solopub at 65%+ in various tank lines at 2.1-2.2k consistantly, or worse yet start talking down to them.

 

But to be honest, that's just assholes being assholes, and there isn't much to be done.

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At this point i just toon with people I enjoy BSing with and tanks I enjoy.

 

Fix your fucking push to talk

 

I think anybody can become a light purple, but most won't.  It does require a lot of work if you don't have the inherent pattern recognition situational awareness to know what you should do; but it's possible.  Becoming deep purple is something that most people simply can't do.  If they don't have the mental fortitude to pressure yourself every match.

 

I kind of disagree with this. 

 

Being purple does take the self-discipline/self-dedication to realize that you're doing something wrong, and going out there with the mindset to figure out what it is, and fix it, but I don't think you need to pressure yourself, per se. You've played with me, you know how much of a tendency I have to superpotato. If I heavily pressured myself to perform every game I'd never last more than 4 games in a row. 

 

Super anal winrate padding platoons, imo, are what suck the fun out of the game for me personally, because that's when I'm really forced to pressure myself. I get actively pissed when I lose in those cases, which isn't fun; even though I'm trying to win every game now, when I don't place as high an emphasis on winrate, it frees me up to A) solopub most of my games and B) not ragequit platoons that lose a few. 

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I would like to toss in my opinion on tournies:

 

I was on the winning team for Classic season 2. We got 125k gold or so - EACH. Huge winnings. It was a group of some of the best players on NA. Very little coordination, strategy, etc. It was a wing-it thing all the way through. It was sort of fun, being in such a prestigious group. But that was where the fun ended. The rest of it was pretty much a hassle. Tons of waiting, tons of down time... and shittons of camping. 

 

Tournaments are camp fests because of a low player count, lower HP pool, and autoloaders. Even without autoloaders, it would be campy. But they make it 10x worse. I seriously cannot equate that kind of gameplay to "the top end of skill."

 

The idea of "the top end of skill" is such a nebulous concept that I really can't see any point in trying to define it. For tourney teams, it's going to revolve around coordination, planning, guessing the enemy's intent, and execution. There's a similar motif to clanwars, but as stated previously there's more success in diplomacy than fielding 3 teams of purples every night.

In pubs, it's so much harder to define it isn't even funny. Some bank it all on survival, which works. Some go for pure damage, which wins but not as frequently. Some go for YOLO IN YO FACE, which works, but is risky. Some just pad, pad, pad their stats (say it like row, row, row your boat) with IS-6 platoons, or whatever is FOTM. Who wins more? Who does more damage? those are answerable questions.

Who among them is more skilled? I ain't gonna touch that question with a 10' stick.

 

Whatever the "top end of skill" is, I just know that A) I am not there, and B) I give no fucks. 

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What pressure? All thats really needed is the same bank of experience that anyone builds up when as they learn the game, it's how you construct and integrate your intuitive gameplay that gives it all meaning.

In response to the "what pressure" questions:

 

At a certain point (where I am now, and what I started my post with) you can cruise control and because of your accrued skills you do extremely well.  However, I know I could do better.  If I wanted to become somebody that will influence every game on my own I probably could but there are times I want to just sit on a corner and derp everything.  If I wanted to get better I could make myself be active every battle to push myself farther and farther into purple-dom.  But the pressure to push myself comes from me and I don't want to keep improving which is (I think) where most of the purples are now.

 

If you want to improve, the desire and the pressure to improve will always be there.  After your own personal limit of your desire to grow as a player, the pressure dissipates and you can enjoy where you're at and be on cruise control.

 

I know I left this post pretty muddled but it's been a long day and I'll respond later if necessary.

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It's natural that people have a 'limit' to their skill. There will always be some people that are just better at doing certain things than others. This doesn't mean that you should just give up, but, well, it may be necessary to work harder to achieve the same as someone else that doesn't even try.

The difficulty of tournaments is overrated by pretty much everyone except the people who actually participate.

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What pressure? All thats really needed is the same bank of experience that anyone builds up when as they learn the game, it's how you construct and integrate your intuitive gameplay that gives it all meaning.

 

The experience is what feeds it but the process of actually integrating that knowledge into your gameplay is something people have a hard time doing. If turning experience into action was 'easy', every person on earth would be a philisophical millionaire playboy super-genius. At the low end of this spectrum, the problem is that people either don't care or are not self-aware enough to care (i.e. it's not hard to be 'competent' at anything, you really just need to put the effort in.) At the high end of he spectrum, you inevitably reach a point where you too stop caring, or you run into an inherent limit in your abilities. At every point in between, it's the same two issues that define the ease of going to the 'next level': do I care enough, and can I do it?

 

These things can change over time though.

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