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Oldumesce

Good DPG per tier

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What are good per-tier DPGs? No seal clubbing tiers, please.
That is of course without particularly OP or UP tanks in mind, as some tanks like the Hellcat can easily do 2.5-4 times their health in damage but a T-34-85 would have difficulty doing just x2.

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Subjective, but you asked for it.

 

These are damage numbers at which i would consider you are good player (damage is much easier to pad after accuracy buff so dont compare old stats too much). Most purples here beat them easily .

tier 5: 800 dmg (t49 1000+)

tier 6: 1200 tds, heavies, 1000 meds

tier 7: 1600 , 1450 mediums

tier 8: mediums 1800, heavies 2000.tds 2100

tier 9: mediums 2300 (t54 2800), tds 2800 , heavies 2600

tier 10: tds 3200, mediums 2800, heavies 2700

 

 

I would describe them as entry for purple territory.

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I'd second those numbers, save for a few odd tanks, every actual purple I know (not those T4-6 unicums) can pull or exceed those numbers.

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Not purple but with the 62A's DPM I'd set it for 3000. Achieved it in mine easily. 

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50*(DPS)*(Tier/10)*(Modifier)

 

Modifier = 1.1 for Heavy, .9 for Medium, 1 for TDs

 

This is a prototype method I've come up with to allow and recognize that certain tanks do not have great DPM, and further recognizes the matchmaking weights of various tanks.

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50*(DPS)*(Tier/10)*(Modifier)

 

Modifier = 1.1 for Heavy, .9 for Medium, 1 for TDs

 

This is a prototype method I've come up with to allow and recognize that certain tanks do not have great DPM, and further recognizes the matchmaking weights of various tanks.

 

Either I'm terribad@math or dunno how to use a calculator because I dunno how to get 13.1k DPG in a T-62A would be.

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Either I'm terribad@math or dunno how to use a calculator because I dunno how to get 13.1k DPG in a T-62A would be.

T-62a DPM is approximately 3000, so 50 DPS. 50x50=2500, x1 for tier, x.9 for medium. By his method T-62a DPG should be 2250. A little low, but not 13

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50*(DPS)*(Tier/10)*(Modifier)

 

Modifier = 1.1 for Heavy, .9 for Medium, 1 for TDs

 

This is a prototype method I've come up with to allow and recognize that certain tanks do not have great DPM, and further recognizes the matchmaking weights of various tanks.

 

DPM is overrated (especially at high tiers).  Jagdpanzer IV sure has awesome DPM , but when you bounce half shots who gives a fuck. A tank that shoots 3 times a minute and has huge alpha is better suited for current meta than tank that has to stay exposed to deal damage. 

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50*(DPS)*(Tier/10)*(Modifier)

 

Modifier = 1.1 for Heavy, .9 for Medium, 1 for TDs

 

This is a prototype method I've come up with to allow and recognize that certain tanks do not have great DPM, and further recognizes the matchmaking weights of various tanks.

 

Why would heavies have a higher modifier? TDs should be higher imo, especially on tier 8-10. 

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I understand that your original question was oriented towards purple tanker's opinions of what a purple tanker should accomplish, but it also made me curious about something else.

 

It made me wonder what the game averages are, just to have a basis for comparison. I wanted to use vbaddict as my source, but we know that the average vbaddict player is better than the average WoT player, which means that we have to quantify the difference, just how much better are vbaddict players than the average WoT tanker. I decided to use Win Rate as the basis for quantifying the difference. We all know there are more complex ways of making this comparison, but I wanted something that would be a "good enough" approximation, and I think WR will suffice.

 

1) WoT tanker

 

For your average WoT tanker, we know that about 1.5% of games end in draws, which means the average WoT player has a win rate of about 48.5%.

 

2) vbaddict tanker

 

For the average vbaddict tanker I used the games and win rate for every tank in the game to figure out the total number of wins for each tank. Then summed the total games, and summed the total wins, to calculate the average win rate for the game as a whole, which gives us the following:

Total games = 41,627,907

Total wins = 20,988,040

Therefore the average vbaddict win rate is (20,988,040/41,627,907) = 50.4%.

 

3) The difference

 

It turns out that this is a pretty significant difference, we all know that raising your win rate by 1.9% is no small feat.

 

We also know that win rate does not scale linearly with damage dealt. If you have a 47% win rate with 100 damage per game you're not going to have a 48% win rate with 101 damage per game (a 1% increase on both stats). Frankly I have no idea what the correlation is between +damage and +winrate, and I don't think it's important enough for the current post to try to establish a forumula that correlates +damage to +winrate. For the purposes of this discusion, we can treat the vbaddict numbers as "the average" that we can use to compare ourselves to and use as our benchmark. We know that the average vbaddict tanker does more damage than the averate WoT-tanker, and now that we've quantified the difference as we set out to, we're going to ignore that the difference exists. Good times. For the time being we can take the vbaddict numbers at face value.

 

Now that we have discussed the difference between "WoT tankers" and "vbaddict" tankers (and why we're going to ignore that difference) these are the figures for damage per game, for each tier, from vbaddict. These are not broken out by machine type, I didn't calculate separately for Hvy, Med, TD, so take that into consideration when you look at them.

 

Tier 1 = 29.5

Tier 2 = 54.9

Tier 3 = 111.9

Tier 4 = 166.8

Tier 5 = 357.9

Tier 6 = 543.2

Tier 7 = 765.4

Tier 8 = 1090.1

Tier 9 = 1513.1

Tier 10 = 2063.9

 

Obviously any answers you get in this thread are going to be higher than these numbers, because the question that was asked was not about average DPG, it was "good" DPG. With the numbers above we now have a baseline to use for comparision when looking at some of the answers that were given.

 

Unitato's forumula suggests that a T-62a should have 2,250 DPG.

Compare this to Lt. Gruber's answer that suggests a T-62a should have 2,800 DPG.

 

These anwers differ by a significant margin, and at this point I don't have much of an opinion about which is a better answer (I'm not a purple, and I don't own a T-62a), but hopefully the averages from vbaddict can be useful for people trying to determine just how much DPG they think they need to strive for.

 

 

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I'd have to agree with Grape_Drink regarding EchelonIII's damage formula. Beyond that, there is some value to using Modifers that are specific for each tier, depending on how detailed you want to be.

 

Using vbaddict again, I looked at tier 8, 9 and 10, here are the DPG numbers and the Modifers that are suggested by these DPG numbers. Based on the fact that Tier 8 is noticeably different from tier 9 and 10, I would suggest that anyone wanting to use EchelonIII's formula for lower tier machines will want to review the data on vbaddict to find out whether other tiers also need customized Modifiers.

 

Tier 8 DPG

Hvy = 1065.2

Med = 947.6

TD = 1309.8

 

Tier 8 Modifiers

Hvy = 1.1

Med = 0.95

TD = 1.2

 

Tier 9 DPG

Hvy = 1362.3

Med = 1392.5

TD = 1855.9

 

Tier 9 Modifiers

Hvy = 1

Med = 1

TD = 1.3

 

Tier 10 DPG

Hvy = 1,887.3 average DPG

Med = 1876.5 average DPG

TD = 2,464 average DPG

 

Hvy = 1

Med = 1

TD = 1.3

 

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Why would heavies have a higher modifier? TDs should be higher imo, especially on tier 8-10. 

 

Compensating for MM weight below tier 8

 

I'm thinking Heavies should have a heavier modifier up to tier 8, and TDs modifier should be increased to 1.2 at tier 8 and above.

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Also it assumes that DPG scales in a mathematical fashion with tier, though there is no real pattern to it.

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I don't think it's fair to try and section it by tier. Different tanks will have hugely different DPG values. As a reasonably average player, I am maintaining somewhat easily 2k~ in my IS3, 1800~ in my 50 100,  and yet pulled 2.6k in my ISU during it's grind. None of my other tier 8 TDs are even close to that, so even setting the TD baseline at 2.2k leaves room for outliers. 

 

Similarly at tier 10, I'd say a DPG of 3k for Heavies is fine, and yet the T57 should probably be closer to 3.5k+, if not 4k. Same can be said for TDs overally probably being 3.4k+, yet the Foch and 183 should probably hang above 4k TBH.

 

TLDR; LtGruber's rough values are probably a good ballpark figure, but there will always be tanks which are outliers.

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DPM is overrated (especially at high tiers).  Jagdpanzer IV sure has awesome DPM , but when you bounce half shots who gives a fuck. A tank that shoots 3 times a minute and has huge alpha is better suited for current meta than tank that has to stay exposed to deal damage. 

 

Sometimes Alpha is MUCH more important than DPM. Having high RoF and low alpha means that you will be exposed much more time to do the same damage than a tank with low Rof and high High. That makes the difference in many situations. 

 

Similarly at tier 10, I'd say a DPG of 3k for Heavies is fine, and yet the T57 should probably be closer to 3.5k+, if not 4k. Same can be said for TDs overally probably being 3.4k+, yet the Foch and 183 should probably hang above 4k TBH.

 

+1

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4k + in any T10 is platinum unicum...

 

Unicum starting point

 

t8-2k+ dpg

t9 2500+

t10 3000+

 

Super unicum

 

t8 2400+

t9 3000+

t10 3500+

 

Platinum unicum

t8 2800+

t9 3400+

t10 4000+

 

Navi_Straik being the upper echelon of tanking.

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4k + in any T10 is platinum unicum...

Unicum starting point

t8-2k+ dpg

t9 2500+

t10 3000+

Super unicum

t8 2400+

t9 3000+

t10 3500+

Platinum unicum

t8 2800+

t9 3400+

t10 4000+

Navi_Straik being the upper echelon of tanking.

Aside from damage padders I don't know anyone with 3500+ in T10 heavies (T57 exception) and T10 mediums

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Aside from damage padders I don't know anyone with 3500+ in T10 heavies (T57 exception) and T10 mediums

 

Depends on if you toon or not most times, solo i tend to pull 4k ish in my t10 TDs / 50b/57.  Tooning will take about 500 dpg from that, and CW a lot more.

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TD's are an exception. I aim for 3500 in my mediums. Not easy >_< 

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It's pretty darn hard to maintain 3k+ in mediums for tier 10s.  ~2000 WN players generally don't exceed 3000 in average medium damage, nor regular heavies.  They generally make low 3000s with TDs.  Only really strong players that base their game around attrition can get mid-3000s in mediums and regular heavies and 4000+ in TDs/50B/T57.

 

If you spot a lot in a tanks and play it as such, you won't get as much damage out of them.  Similarly, if you prefer decisive engagements over attrition, you may also get a bit less in heavies and TDs.

 

Too bad DuDs don't show in stats.  It shows a lot on a player's preference in play.

 

 

 

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Is it safe to assume that in most cases:

Basing playstyle off attrition leads to higher DPG but less WR while winning decisive engagements leads to lower DPG but higher WR?

I've noticed this when I switch between playing aggresively and winning decisive engagements vs. games where it's about attrition and I can just damage farm.

Is a custom playstyle required to achieve both 70%+ and 3000+ DPG in all Tier 10s?

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Is it safe to assume that in most cases:

Basing playstyle off attrition leads to higher DPG but less WR while winning decisive engagements leads to lower DPG but higher WR?

I've noticed this when I switch between playing aggresively and winning decisive engagements vs. games where it's about attrition and I can just damage farm.

Is a custom playstyle required to achieve both 70%+ and 3000+ DPG in all Tier 10s?

 

IMO yes, playstyle defines damage and winratio  but hard to tell how precisely. 70% in tier 10 is insane score, i would say almost impossible by all but best players.

About damage vs winratio, Lucique has 2.8k dmg in t59 and just 63 winrate in 400 battles. Some other unigigacum that would play it less safely would prob win more and deal 200-300 less damage. Kirilloid comes to mind as example.

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The best objective measure is the XVM averages.*  With those you can get an exact average and unicum score for any tank.  As a ballpark, I would say:

 

Average - unicum - kewei/straik/etc

 

Tier 8 med:  800 - 1800 - 2500

Tier 8 hvy:  1000 - 2000 - 2800

 

Tier 10 med:  1500 - 2500 - 3500

Tier 10 TD:  2000 - 3200 - 4500

 

Excludes high damage farmers relative to tier peers such as T69.

 

* As pointed out by an earlier poster, technically the average XVM player is still a "green" but its close enough for our purposes.  Besides, do you really want to use the thousands of window lickers, noobs, and bots as your bar?

 

P.S.  Stop obsessing about DPG.  Its merely one input among many, and about as relevant as average trees knocked down if you aren't winning.  3k dpg and 60% win rate is a worse player than 2k dpg and 65%.

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3k dpg and 60% win rate is a worse player than 2k dpg and 65%.

 

Have you heard about this thing... platoons? Yes, they magically improve your winrate while hindering every other meaningful stat.

 

Conversely, don't fret with WR, it's a meaningless stat by itself and, in most cases, easy to manipulate.

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