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Garbad

Do you think TDs are a problem?

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I think a lot of it has to do with how people handle accurate/high rof guns and how the acc stat doesn't actually mean as much as people think.

 

How so, because this has ben bugging the hell out of me.

 

It may be as Oop put it confirmation bias, but it seems less accurate guns got + accuracy and accurate guns stayed the same or lost a little.

I noticed this before anyone else really said anything and when i mentioned it they said they saw a lot of the same.

 

A KV2 shouldn't be able to regularly derp stationary tanks at 400+ m and I've had it happen too many times to discount as luck.

 

I'm going to look up pre and post  8.6 numbers if I can and do some practice room tests ... not 100K rounds ... maybe a 1 or 2 hundred.

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Your argument comes down to the fact that you claim that a 152 HE shell can hit moving targets at range.

152 = .46 accuracy, 650 velocity

Good fucking luck

as i said, look video, this was recorded in 1 evening, and i had more clips, but they where not worth all the extra time

 

i will give exacte times so you only see the moving kills:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jWUgxblbJo&t=#t=1m22s

 

1 minutes 22 seconds:

amx rushing down on el halluf (and before that i snipe a super pershing in his hatch) and next shot is a T71 who moves slowly backwards, thats 3 ``impossible`` shots in a row (all 3 cross map)

 

1 minutes 42 seconds:

I first derp a KT, next a T28 proto followed by a wz-132 all crossmap on Campinovka, then i turn around to hit a VK28 who rushes downhill for our arty (he moves full speed, i shoot like 30m in front of him) only yo turn around to hit a JT-88 crossmap for 1k dmg (HE ftw) then i 2 shot a Type, first 450 or so with HE, killshot with HEAT

 

4 minutes 55 seconds:

i derp a SU-152 on super long range, followed by shooting a T29 in his hatch at 400m, last shot is a moving lorraine arty at about 450meter, he gets even despotted, but i STILL hit him

 

if you can not shoot in this game, dont project in other people, i have no problems hitting people crossmap with derp guns, over and over, i could also snipe with VK28 105mm HEAT shells np, and i was not the only one who could do it (a whole bunch of EU unicums played heat spam VK28, and they all sniped with it , and 105mm HEAT si way worse accuracy wise as 152....)

 

edit: stupid embed function ofc not starting video at the correct timestamp

Edited by GehakteMolen
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as i said, look video, this was recorded in 1 evening, and i had more clips, but they where not worth all the extra time

 

i will give exacte times so you only see the moving kills:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jWUgxblbJo&t=#t=1m22s

Oh hey, a frag video, let's cut the best moments and show 5 minutes of the best games we've ever played as a representative sample of 10 hours of game time.

1 minutes 22 seconds:

amx rushing down on el halluf (and before that i snipe a super pershing in his hatch) and next shot is a T71 who moves slowly backwards, thats 3 ``impossible`` shots in a row (all 3 cross map)

Not shown: The other 42 hours of El Halluf footage with the 152 missing everything at long range.

1 minutes 42 seconds:

I first derp a KT, next a T28 proto followed by a wz-132 all crossmap on Campinovka, then i turn around to hit a VK28 who rushes downhill for our arty (he moves full speed, i shoot like 30m in front of him) only yo turn around to hit a JT-88 crossmap for 1k dmg (HE ftw) then i 2 shot a Type, first 450 or so with HE, killshot with HEAT

So you hit a KT for 740 damage at 1443, then a Proto for 182 at 1427, then a WZ at 1408 for 409

Here's what would have happened with a 122mm.

1444 I smack the KT's side for 390.

At 1438, six seconds later, I hit the KT AGAIN for 390 more.

1432, I get to shoot the KT or proto again, getting in a full damage instead of looking like a retard spending a 152mm shell on a 180HP tank

1408, I snipe the WZ with my much more accurate 122, with a fair chance of OHKOing him anyway

Guess who does more damage?

4 minutes 55 seconds:

i derp a SU-152 on super long range, followed by shooting a T29 in his hatch at 400m, last shot is a moving lorraine arty at about 450meter, he gets even despotted, but i STILL hit him

As I've also said, not shown are the other dozen hours of you not making those shots.

if you can not shoot in this game, dont project in other people, i have no problems hitting people crossmap with derp guns, over and over, i could also snipe with VK28 105mm HEAT shells np, and i was not the only one who could do it (a whole bunch of EU unicums played heat spam VK28, and they all sniped with it , and 105mm HEAT si way worse accuracy wise as 152....)

 

edit: stupid embed function ofc not starting video at the correct timestamp

If they are HEAT sniping in a VK28, I would not call them unicums.

Also hey guys, this one time I killed 15 tanks in a Hetzer, so the Hetzer must be the best tank in World of Tanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdDg2ucdy1A

 

As I say about all frag videos, if you were that good, you wuoldn't ha

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Oh hey, a frag video, let's cut the best moments and show 5 minutes of the best games we've ever played as a representative sample of 10 hours of game time.

Not shown: The other 42 hours of El Halluf footage with the 152 missing everything at long range.

So you hit a KT for 740 damage at 1443, then a Proto for 182 at 1427, then a WZ at 1408 for 409

Here's what would have happened with a 122mm.

1444 I smack the KT's side for 390.

At 1438, six seconds later, I hit the KT AGAIN for 390 more.

1432, I get to shoot the KT or proto again, getting in a full damage instead of looking like a retard spending a 152mm shell on a 180HP tank

1408, I snipe the WZ with my much more accurate 122, with a fair chance of OHKOing him anyway

Guess who does more damage?

As I've also said, not shown are the other dozen hours of you not making those shots.

If they are HEAT sniping in a VK28, I would not call them unicums.

Also hey guys, this one time I killed 15 tanks in a Hetzer, so the Hetzer must be the best tank in World of Tanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdDg2ucdy1A

 

As I say about all frag videos, if you were that good, you wuoldn't ha

*sign*

 

i always play like this, and it always work like this, this is not ``record 100 hours to show 5 clips``, its just some random SU-152 games, if your too bad to do this, its not my problem...

 

and yes, hetzer with HEAT was most op t4 ever, and it still is fkn good

 

and just total LOL @ vk28, EU players have proven over and over that that tank was broke as fuck, and op as fuck, most OP tank in this game since close beta, if not most OP tank ever, only tank which could break the 3k exp mark over and over, and far superior to even chaffee or T-50-2 in there heydays...

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/179875-share-your-vk2801-stats/#topmost

 

d0vakhiin sometimes posted 4-5 +3k exp games in a row in clanchat, he was the best vk28 driver of eu, but many others where not that far behind....

 

my own stats, all solo (when removing the non-HEAT spam games)

- 268 games

- 69,4% win

- 1430 dpb

- 1285 exp/battle

- 1,49 kills/battle

 

i think everyone in my clan back then (322) who played this *thing* has atleast 3300 exp as top game, others even broke the 4000 exp.... and games with +k exp where not rare, far from, there was a contest, and each day you could send in your best exp game, and i send in ever single day, a game with +3000 exp... (i won 3x

 

it was this contest btw:

http://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/45/end-year-contest-winners/

 

look the exp in the fighter category, 90% of those where VK28, the others beiing churchill III with +30% exp and gold ammo + platoon (for more exp) or chaffees

 

your VK28 comment just shows how little you know about this game, just lol....

Edited by GehakteMolen
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*sign*

 

i always play like this, and it always work like this, this is not ``record 100 hours to show 5 clips``, its just some random SU-152 games, if your too bad to do this, its not my problem...

By your logic, I could also take a video of me consistently missing fully aimed shots, splicing them together, and saying the accuracy sucks. I'm sure I could dig some up.

 

and yes, hetzer with HEAT was most op t4 ever, and it still is fkn good

So it's the best tank in the game, the video says so, let's all play Hetzers to pad WN8, oh wait.

 

and just total LOL @ vk28, EU players have proven over and over that that tank was broke as fuck, and op as fuck, most OP tank in this game since close beta, if not most OP tank ever, only tank which could break the 3k exp mark over and over, and far superior to even chaffee or T-50-2 in there heydays...

Since you want to bring up anecdotal evidence from a year old, here's some for you: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/267181-by-the-numbers-the-10-most-overpowered-tanks-of-86/

I don't see a VK28 anywhere on that list, and it's only gotten worse since then.

In any case, most OP tank since closed beta? Obviously the Vk28 was more OP than things like T9 IS-4, T8 Lorraine, HEAT-54, M4 Derp, F155, 122-44. Hell I would call the ELC as being better for a 5 than a VK for their respective matchmaking brackets.

You've gone from stupid to fucking stupid.

In an age where SPGs earned half XP and more importantly, TDs earned 30% less, no less.

The VK earning huge amounts of XP was an issue with the way XP was awarded, the VK28 would almost always face higher tiers (and thus earn more XP), face an enemy with higher HP pools (thus have more damage to deal), AND the fact that it almost always spots what it damages (read: 50% more XP).

That's a broken XP mechanic, not a broken tank.

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/179875-share-your-vk2801-stats/#topmost

 

d0vakhiin sometimes posted 4-5 +3k exp games in a row in clanchat, he was the best vk28 driver of eu, but many others where not that far behind....

 

my own stats, all solo (when removing the non-HEAT spam games)

- 268 games

- 69,4% win

- 1430 dpb

- 1285 exp/battle

- 1,49 kills/battle

 

i think everyone in my clan back then (322) who played this *thing* has atleast 3300 exp as top game, others even broke the 4000 exp.... and games with +k exp where not rare, far from, there was a contest, and each day you could send in your best exp game, and i send in ever single day, a game with +3000 exp... (i won 3x

 

it was this contest btw:

http://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/45/end-year-contest-winners/

 

look the exp in the fighter category, 90% of those where VK28, the others beiing churchill III with +30% exp and gold ammo + platoon (for more exp) or chaffees

 

your VK28 comment just shows how little you know about this game, just lol....

Newsflash: This is 2014.

But hey, let's try changing the timeframe of the argument to make the other party seem wrong by bringing up threads and evidence from 2012.

I stand by my statement, sniping in a VK28 is fucking retarded.

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bla bla, lots of gibberish about VK2801

 

i only wanted to check if your really one of those forum skillers, who pretend to know everything, and who always *think* they no better

 

seems i was right, you are really clueless, onyl thing that differs is that yoru jnot stuck on 53-54-55% winratio, like most of your kind...

 

VK28 was way, way more OP and broke as ANY of the tank you listed, only some ridiculous OP beta tanks come close,

- early verion IS7

- some *forms* of IS4 (the tank changed a lot during beta)

- first versions of T54 and 704

 

T54 with heat, lorraine, m4 derp, they where (or are) all far, far less OP

 

and stuff like F155 and 122-44 may not even kiss the feat of a VK28

 

you cant play and you have no clue and this idiotic post proofs it...

 

kkthkxby

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One of the reasons why the derp monsters like kv2 and su152 feel more accurate than their numbers suggest is kinda simple. With the derps you are always doing damage when you hit no matter where you hit. And if you shoot low tier tanks even missing them can occasionally still blow them up. With the shitty but accurate needle guns like the panther has you need to hit the tank AND hit where you can penetrate. The window where you need to hit to do damage is much smaller for the needle guns which partly negates their "better accuracy stat" adventage.

Afterwards when you think how accurate a gun is all you remember is all those shots that did or did not do damage and there the derp gun suddenly feels more accurate because it does damage more often. This same reason also makes the high tier TD guns feel more accurate. Not because they are more accurate but because they can be less accurate but they still do damage at long ranges simply because of the lolpen. It is very hard to shoot at tiger2 at long ranges with 300 pen gun and not do damage whereas shooting the same tank with 225 pen railgun means that some shots will not do anything simply because they miss the weakspot by few centimetres.

Which gun is more accurate:

wot_hittting.png

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i would also add, that since derp guns have much more curved trajectory, shells "drop on tanks" thus  having a bigger area that they can hit, all leading to perceived "more accuracy" The biggest problem with derp guns is not their accuracy but their shell speed that makes leading target really hard especially when shooting tanks on even ground or above you.

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One of the reasons why the derp monsters like kv2 and su152 feel more accurate than their numbers suggest is kinda simple. With the derps you are always doing damage when you hit no matter where you hit. And if you shoot low tier tanks even missing them can occasionally still blow them up. With the shitty but accurate needle guns like the panther has you need to hit the tank AND hit where you can penetrate. The window where you need to hit to do damage is much smaller for the needle guns which partly negates their "better accuracy stat" adventage.

Afterwards when you think how accurate a gun is all you remember is all those shots that did or did not do damage and there the derp gun suddenly feels more accurate because it does damage more often. This same reason also makes the high tier TD guns feel more accurate. Not because they are more accurate but because they can be less accurate but they still do damage at long ranges simply because of the lolpen. It is very hard to shoot at tiger2 at long ranges with 300 pen gun and not do damage whereas shooting the same tank with 225 pen railgun means that some shots will not do anything simply because they miss the weakspot by few centimetres.

Which gun is more accurate:

wot_hittting.png

this is what i try to say Ech...

 

152 only needs a hit, 122 needs to hit a weakspot

 

accuracy doesnt mean much then....

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i only wanted to check if your really one of those forum skillers, who pretend to know everything, and who always *think* they no better

 

seems i was right, you are really clueless, onyl thing that differs is that yoru jnot stuck on 53-54-55% winratio, like most of your kind...

 

VK28 was way, way more OP and broke as ANY of the tank you listed, only some ridiculous OP beta tanks come close,

- early verion IS7

- some *forms* of IS4 (the tank changed a lot during beta)

- first versions of T54 and 704

 

T54 with heat, lorraine, m4 derp, they where (or are) all far, far less OP

 

and stuff like F155 and 122-44 may not even kiss the feat of a VK28

 

you cant play and you have no clue and this idiotic post proofs it...

 

kkthkxby

I say they aren't, if you get to present without evidence, so do I. Wait, I DO have evidence that makes you look like a right idiot ranting with an unsupported statement.

Let's ignore the fact that all the other tanks won a LOT more than the VK's pathetic 52.8 win ratio and focus on the VK's win graph from two years ago.

7rSwabc.png

Does this look like an OP tank to you? 61%ers winning at the standard of a 58? L

I wonder what you have to say about how much winning means as a measure of a tank:

ITS ABOUT WINNING!!11eleven!1

Ahh there we go.

Get out moron, your logic is no better than a red.

 

One of the reasons why the derp monsters like kv2 and su152 feel more accurate than their numbers suggest is kinda simple. With the derps you are always doing damage when you hit no matter where you hit. And if you shoot low tier tanks even missing them can occasionally still blow them up. With the shitty but accurate needle guns like the panther has you need to hit the tank AND hit where you can penetrate. The window where you need to hit to do damage is much smaller for the needle guns which partly negates their "better accuracy stat" adventage.

Afterwards when you think how accurate a gun is all you remember is all those shots that did or did not do damage and there the derp gun suddenly feels more accurate because it does damage more often. This same reason also makes the high tier TD guns feel more accurate. Not because they are more accurate but because they can be less accurate but they still do damage at long ranges simply because of the lolpen. It is very hard to shoot at tiger2 at long ranges with 300 pen gun and not do damage whereas shooting the same tank with 225 pen railgun means that some shots will not do anything simply because they miss the weakspot by few centimetres.

Which gun is more accurate:

wot_hittting.png

Shell velocity reduces the likelihood of you even HITTING the target simply because there are too many variables out of your control.

Hitting a target is like finding a needle in a haystack, would you rather search a large haystack or a small one?

TEhR57a.jpg

Which is the easier shot?

Let's keep in mind here that even if I had a 100% accuracy gun that never missed where I pointed it, I'd still be helpless if my shell velocity is so slow that any change in movement on the part of the enemy will make me miss.

Notice that whether the shell is a hit with this gun lies in the hands of the enemy.

It doesn't matter if I can always my shell where I want to go if the room for an uncooperative enemy to make it miss is large.

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Oh, we have that on the NA server too, skip to the last five minutes of this replay: 

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/6dubz32d9u5z2tf/20140114_1650_ussr-Object268_15_komarin.wotreplay

 

Let's not bother with anecdotal evidence here. 

 

That has to be one of the worst 110 players I've ever seen.  Such malice and ignorance.

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Does this look like an OP tank to you? 61%ers winning at the standard of a 58? 

------------

I ofc mean the tier 5 VK28, in guess you where thinking of something different

------------

hahaha, all your argumentation is now invalid for the simple reason:

 

You dont even recognize one of the most blatant OP vehicles there has ever been in this game...

 

Please continu, i bet you also always believed that the tier 9 IS4 was far superior to E75, or that T110E5 was worse as IS7, please tell me more, your ignorance and lack of ``gameknowledge`` is just stunning,

 

Even the IDEA that VK28 with HEAT was not OP as fuck is stunning and already shows you have no clue at all about balance and what is OP and not

 

Hint a tank is OP if:

1: it is noobproof, so morons perform better in it as other same tier / class vehicles (a moron in a KV-1s is way more dangerous as the same idiot in a VK36 or M6)

2: Unicums can perform far better in it as in same tier / class vehicles, something like a Hellcat or T69 with HEAT (before nerf), a moron wont perform that much better in a hellcat as in a SU-100, a unicum however...

 

The first means its noobproof, the second means it has `high skill ceilling`

 

VK28 was in the hands of an idiot not that good, nor was it without HEAT ammo, but just like T69 it was broke and OP in the hands of a good players with HEAT...

If you cant or wont see this, just lol

 

seriously, lol....

 

(ps no joking, just lol, a VK28 not OP, lol....)

 

ps ps: your just as annoying / stubborn and wrong as Tazilon, who also loved to spout all sorts of stuff around, yet was also totally wrong, and who never admitted he was...

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------------

I ofc mean the tier 5 VK28, in guess you where thinking of something different

Let's say VK28 sniping and change the timeframe without specifying it.

You fail to be specific, I can take it how I want

 

------------

hahaha, all your argumentation is now invalid for the simple reason:

 

You dont even recognize one of the most blatant OP vehicles there has ever been in this game...

Well you do a right job of displaying absolutely no evidence to support your case.

Also, that graph was from TWO years ago, and dates back to PRE-NERF VK28.

gg scrublord.

 

Please continu, i bet you also always believed that the tier 9 IS4 was far superior to E75, or that T110E5 was worse as IS7, please tell me more, your ignorance and lack of ``gameknowledge`` is just stunning,

In light of those, only a fucking idiot would argue that the E75 we have now is more OP than the IS-4 at tier 9. Fortunately, that seems to be your forte.

 

Even the IDEA that VK28 with HEAT was not OP as fuck is stunning and already shows you have no clue at all about balance and what is OP and not

 

Hint a tank is OP if:

1: it is noobproof, so morons perform better in it as other same tier / class vehicles (a moron in a KV-1s is way more dangerous as the same idiot in a VK36 or M6)

2: Unicums can perform far better in it as in same tier / class vehicles, something like a Hellcat or T69 with HEAT (before nerf), a moron wont perform that much better in a hellcat as in a SU-100, a unicum however...

 

Yet the graph shows neither, you have presented no hard data to the contrary, and you have not given any possible reasons other than the presence of the 105 which has been established as OP.

No evidence = GTFO

The first means its noobproof, the second means it has `high skill ceilling`

 

VK28 was in the hands of an idiot not that good, nor was it without HEAT ammo, but just like T69 it was broke and OP in the hands of a good players with HEAT...

If you cant or wont see this, just lol

 

The idea that 105mm HEAT is OP is a known and shown one.

 

The idea that the VK28 became the most OP tank in the game, unfortunately, remains unsupported by evidence.

No supporting evidence = Your argument, no matter how right the conclusion, is shit.

If you can't show it, we have no reason to accept it. GTFO

 

seriously, lol....

 

(ps no joking, just lol, a VK28 not OP, lol....)

 

ps ps: your just as annoying / stubborn and wrong as Tazilon, who also loved to spout all sorts of stuff around, yet was also totally wrong, and who never admitted he was...

Let's see what you've argued
  • VK 28 was more OP than the pre-nerf T-54, HEAT-T54, or Tier 9 IS4
  • You can reliably hit MOVING targets at 500 meters with 650 shell speed 
  • HE always does damage
If you presented this on the main forums, you'd be laughed out, I'm giving you a chance to present supporting evidence and your rationale, you have done nothing more than "If you cannot see why, you are an idiot".

 

Dismissed.

 

Now get out.

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I get the feeling GehakteMolen is suffering from severe confirmation bias...

Confirmation bias implies seeing what you expect from the evidence, and is a form of post hoc.

What we have here is an argument WITHOUT evidence, and is so abshrd it is not even wrong.

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Considering one of the main threats to the JPE is arty, the difference between 2200 HP and 1750 HP would be vast. The JPE absolutely does not need an HP nerf, especially if what you're going for is a meta change away from giant alpha/camptastic high tier gameplay the TDs support and not kicking already iffy vehicles in the gonads.

 

I have talked about it before, but in order to "fix" TDs you will need a combination of map changes, mechanic overhauls, and tank-specific balance tweaks. To be specific, maps need to have more viable routes and less cover. The vision system needs to do its vision checks far more often that it currently does, and an increase in vision ray points would also be welcomed. Tweaking the endtier TDs individually will require a sort of finesse that I lack, although I propose the following as a sort of rough guide to what would make me happy:

 

Object 268 - reduce alpha to 750, RoF adjusted to match DPM, armor thickness changed to match IS-8.

Object 263 - no changes.

Foch 155 - reduce alpha to 750, interclip to 6.

WTE-100 - remove 128mm, reduce accuracy of 155.

JPE-100 - no changes.

FV 183 - track traverse reduced, reduce HESH to 1500, increase RoF to 2.3.

T110E4 - reduce frontal-side turret armor, alpha to 750, RoF adjusted to match DPM.

T110E3 - reduce frontal-side superstructure armor, alpha to 750, RoF adjusted to match DPM.

Love the WTF100 idea, 183 idea is ok(even though i believe it is balanced, it just ruines gameplay more then anything else) E4 needs weaker armor? I all ready find it a useless tank and easy to pen in any tier 9/10. E3 armor decrease seems about right. Foch needs an armor rework more then anything else. Your 268 change also looks good.

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The removal of TD class camo bonus and reduction of 850dmg to 750 would go a long way towards balancing them out, add in various tweaks to WT100, F155 and 183 and I see the makings of a much more balanced game.

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I wont waste hours to make graphs and other crap just to show you the obvious...
 
perhaps you understand it with the following (obvious) examples:
- IS7 is based on numbers / global winratio, worse as Maus, (48,95 vs 49,95, see wot-news tank stats )
 
see the limitation of `number proof`? or do you really believe that HEAT shells for credits can make a HEAT spammer a worse tank?
 
Also, on EU forums most people agree that 
- HE deal always dmg, and is usefull for certain tanks / guns / situations, if you cant dmg / play with HE, l2p, 
- ppl who cant hit stuff with slow shells should l2p 
- VK2801 with HEAT was retarded OP, except ofc for a bunch of morons who couldnt play
 
so 3x l2p issues, often by ppl with dark red stats, and (far) below 50% winratio, perhaps you should (l2)play first before you talk suchs gibberish...
 
ps: VK2801 with HEAT not OP, lol, 
 
ps ps: and i wont play 5 hours with SU-152 derp to show the obvious: that 152mm HE deals very good dmg 8/10 times... nor do i want to `investigate` how / why the VK2801 is OP, since the conclusion is obvious: it was OP as fuck
 
HOWEVER if the following applies, i have to applogize (and you and other NA players should also remember it next time ;) )

Server differences and mm...
 
EU had and has way more players, so (perhaps) totally different mm as NA,
When i played VK28 for contest end 2012 / beginning 2013 (so only VK28, nothing else) tier 8 as top tier where the most frequent games, followed by tier 9, tier 7, tier 10, and tier 6, ergo, i had more games where i saw Tigers and IS`s as E100s and IS7`s
 
You can guess what happens if a VK28 is constantly matched against tier 6-7-8 tanks... I have more alpha dmg, faster reload and more dpm, combined with way better speed, viewrange and camo, i can kill tier 6-7 tanks in 2-3-4 hits
 
Perhaps on NA server the VK28 got thougher mm, (more tier 9/10 tanks, less tier 6-7) which greatly limits its OPness, but on EU it was half the time not a scout, but a ridiculous OP dmg dealer, seeing a VK28 dealing the most dmg when matched against tier 7 or 8 was not very uncommon...
 
so IF on NA server VK28 had (much) thougher mm, i can understand why you dont think VK28 was so blatant OP, and i should  thus apology to you (since i overlooked that), 
HOWEVER you (and others from NA) should also understand that game and mm are in some aspects totally different on EU as on NA, so instead of going full retard with BS claims, perhaps think of that next time... Since what you consider `normal` on NA is not always the same on EU (or RU) servers, be it the amount of TCs, gold ammo or certain tanks (see different opinions on T95) 
 
IF VK28 however had same mm-spread on NA as on EU, then its however again:
VK2801 with HEAT not OP, lol,
 
ps: didnt tazilon keep track of what tier opponents he faced? perhaps same kind of thing is done on EU server, my memory can ofc always fool me a little (if i remember well tazilon had very little t6/7 games, while i guess i had 1/3 t6/7 (and 1/3 t8 and 1/3 t9/10)
 

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WTE-100 - remove 128mm, reduce accuracy of 155.

 

Just thought of something else.

 

Give it the 128mm L55, same accuracy and aim time as on the JP2, 6(maybe 5?) rounds clip with 3.5s interclip reload time, same clip reload time.

 

What you guys think?

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Just thought of something else.

 

Give it the 128mm L55, same accuracy and aim time as on the JP2, 6(maybe 5?) rounds clip with 3.5s interclip reload time, same clip reload time.

 

What you guys think?

hmmm,

 

i fear you then create another T54E1 / T69 kind of tank, without gold ammo balanced, yet OP when spamming APCR..

 

only way i can think to balance WTF E100 without ruining it (the guy playing it included)... 4x560 with 3 sec in between shells and rly good rld speed si it becomes a dpm monster with respectable clip dmg

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Tldr. I miss my vk2801. I was a baddie right when I got it, and only learned anything after it got nerfed :(

 

 

As for the WTF e100, i feel like 1 less shell in the clip would balance it fine. 

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I wont waste hours to make graphs and other crap just to show you the obvious...

 

perhaps you understand it with the following (obvious) examples:

- IS7 is based on numbers / global winratio, worse as Maus, (48,95 vs 49,95, see wot-news tank stats )

- VK2801 winratio dropped after HEAT for credits was introduced ( http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/259666-vk2801-possible-fixes/page__pid__5082357#entry5082357 )

Yet the graph dates back to PRE-VK nerf.

 

see the limitation of `number proof`? or do you really believe that HEAT shells for credits can make a HEAT spammer a worse tank?

HEAT shells for creds must make it a better tank, yet the win rate drops

 

Also, on EU forums most people agree that 

- HE deal always dmg, and is usefull for certain tanks / guns / situations, if you cant dmg / play with HE, l2p, 

- ppl who cant hit stuff with slow shells should l2p 

- VK2801 with HEAT was retarded OP, except ofc for a bunch of morons who couldnt play

 

Funny, on NA we agree

- HE is for morons

- Ppl who can't move unpredictably enough to throw off most slow shells should l2p

- Sniping with a 152mm at 500 meters is absolutely retarded

- 105mm HEAT is OP in general

- The VK28 has great vision control, great mobility, and rapes 6es and 7s, then again, 6es and 7es dont see 10shave much more lenient MM

 

so 3x l2p issues, often by ppl with dark red stats, and (far) below 50% winratio, perhaps you should (l2)play first before you talk suchs gibberish...

 

ps: VK2801 with HEAT not OP, lol,

This is fun, your statement has become more concessionary each time.

First it's the most OP tank in the game

and just total LOL @ vk28, EU players have proven over and over that that tank was broke as fuck, and op as fuck, most OP tank in this game since close beta, if not most OP tank ever

Then it's more OP than "anything I've listed"

VK28 was way, way more OP and broke as ANY of the tank you listed, only some ridiculous OP beta tanks come close,

Then it's just "blatantly OP"

You dont even recognize one of the most blatant OP vehicles there has ever been in this game...

Now, it's just "OP"

If your first statement was so correct, why is your stand crumbling?

 

ps ps: and i wont play 5 hours with SU-152 derp to show the obvious: that 152mm HE deals very good dmg 8/10 times... nor do i want to `investigate` how / why the VK2801 is OP, since the conclusion is obvious: it was OP as fuck

 

HOWEVER if the following applies, i have to applogize (and you and other NA players should also remember it next time ;) )

Server differences and mm...

 

EU had and has way more players, so (perhaps) totally different mm as NA,

When i played VK28 for contest end 2012 / beginning 2013 (so only VK28, nothing else) tier 8 as top tier where the most frequent games, followed by tier 9, tier 7, tier 10, and tier 6, ergo, i had more games where i saw Tigers and IS`s as E100s and IS7`s

 

You can guess what happens if a VK28 is constantly matched against tier 6-7-8 tanks... I have more alpha dmg, faster reload and more dpm, combined with way better speed, viewrange and camo, i can kill tier 6-7 tanks in 2-3-4 hits

 

Perhaps on NA server the VK28 got thougher mm, (more tier 9/10 tanks, less tier 6-7) which greatly limits its OPness, but on EU it was half the time not a scout, but a ridiculous OP dmg dealer, seeing a VK28 dealing the most dmg when matched against tier 7 or 8 was not very uncommon...

 

so IF on NA server VK28 had (much) thougher mm, i can understand why you dont think VK28 was so blatant OP, and i should  thus apology to you (since i overlooked that), 

HOWEVER you (and others from NA) should also understand that game and mm are in some aspects totally different on EU as on NA, so instead of going full retard with BS claims, perhaps think of that next time... Since what you consider `normal` on NA is not always the same on EU (or RU) servers, be it the amount of TCs, gold ammo or certain tanks (see different opinions on T95) 

 

IF VK28 however had same mm-spread on NA as on EU, then its however again:

VK2801 with HEAT not OP, lol,

 

ps: didnt tazilon keep track of what tier opponents he faced? perhaps same kind of thing is done on EU server, my memory can ofc always fool me a little (if i remember well tazilon had very little t6/7 games, while i guess i had 1/3 t6/7 (and 1/3 t8 and 1/3 t9/10)

 

A VK28 placed against 6 or 7s will rape them consistently, doubtless, but matches like those in a scout are few and far between, it's far more likely going to result in lol 8-9-10 gg.

The problem comes from the fact that an M4 with a 105 HEAT will have similar punching power, has a much lighter MM weight than the VK, gets to rape 3's 4's and 5's, and doesn't get thrown into 9s and 10s where you get raped by everything that you face.

More investigation will be needed into the server MM though. I will probably conduct a study with an EU account.

However we can all agree that Tazilon is a shitlord scrubbie, I would blow a hole in the ozone layer with CFCs just to give him cancer.

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Yet the graph dates back to PRE-VK nerf.
 
HEAT shells for creds must make it a better tank, yet the win rate drops
 

 
But you cant see how much unicums spammed HEAT, so the data will always be invalid... (and on EU lots and lots of players did not spam HEAT with it... same i dont use much HEAT with T54..)
 

Funny, on NA we agree
- HE is for morons
- Ppl who can't move unpredictably enough to throw off most slow shells should l2p
- Sniping with a 152mm at 500 meters is absolutely retarded
- 105mm HEAT is OP in general, what's so special about a VK28?

 

- HE is still powerfull enough for a whole bunch of derp guns (be it SU-152 or m4) to be off use..

- ppl dont move unpredicatble, i have killed ppl who where despotted for like 30 secs, just keep shooting at last location, and they wont move

- sniping with it should be avoided if possible, be where sniping is needed, the gun is more then capable of doing so...

- VK28 combined ridiculous good speed / mobility with that derp, and the mm was an advantage, m4 had lots of games where the derp was overkill, VK28 on the other hand faced tons and tons of tier 7-8 tanks

 

to give an idea of ``mobility skills``, there still huge amounts of people who move turret and hull in oposite directions when beiing flanked (so hull turns clockwise, turret counterclockwise...) also tons, and tons of people only turn turret when getting flanked, same huge amounts of people stop in the open, to take a shot... just watching the averager player drive is already depressing -.-

This is fun, your statement has become more concessionary each time.
First it's the most OP tank in the game

 
Let me clearify:
If we exclude beta, then VK28 with HEAT is, one of, if not the most OP tanks of all times (depending on how you look at it ofc, lorraine was also broke, T-50-2 was also stupid good and so on, imo they were all inferior to VK28 with HEAT, other dont agree with that, however everyone (= people from 322, but also EFE and PTS = unicums, all considered it OP as hell, broke, and in need of a super-ultra-nerf) i dont think you will find much EU unicums who say: VK28 was only a little bit too good...
 
(i myself never considered the lorraine to be that much of a problem, and stuff like a type was (and is) fine for me, my only complaint regarding type is that it has special mm (which it doesnt rly need...)
 

A VK28 placed against 6 or 7s will rape them consistently, doubtless, but matches like those in a scout are few and far between, it's far more likely going to result in lol 8-9-10 gg.

in tier 8 the VK28 used to be also more then a match for everything that drives there

 

However we can all agree that Tazilon is a shitlord scrubbie,

I can sort of agree with this :P

 

i might have most of my VK28 replays, so i can perhaps see what kind of mm i had, BUT these replays are spread out over multiple pcs and atleast 2 versions of wot i fear, so collecting everything will take a lot (too much) time...

 

When i played T-50-2 i always hoped for arty partys or tier 10 fights, and i hardly ever got those, could be the time of the day i played, but it was far too little, VK28 had better mm (for me)

 

ps: is data about mm nowwhere available?

 

would be interesting to see how mm changes during the day and from day to day (and also differs between servers)

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hmmm,

 

i fear you then create another T54E1 / T69 kind of tank, without gold ammo balanced, yet OP when spamming APCR..

 

Well, that's the problem with sprem, it breaks balance.

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