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OOPMan

Is SPrem Out of Control?

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So, I've been running with Received Damage Announcer lately and it's kind of shocking.

 

I expect to get HEATed by an E-100, for sure.

 

But a 59-16 firing APCR at my T49?

 

Seriously?

 

Others have said it before and I'll say it again: A hard-cap on the number of SPrem rounds is a good idea because as much fun as the AMX 13 90 is with a full APCR load, it's not even close to being balanced.

 

I know Garbad and some others agree on this but what is the general consensus: Would a hard-cap on SPrem rounds be a good idea?

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I think you've identified a symptom, but not the disease.

 

The real problem, in my opinion, is what has happened to the economy over the last several months.  More premium tanks, more premium tank sales, and missions providing hundreds of thousands of essentially free credits every day.  This has led to a few issues.  Primarily, the ability to be a profitible full time potato at tier 10.  Additionally, the issue you have identified, the proliferation of premium ammo.  When credits are meaningless, there is no penalty for stupid deaths or prem spam. 

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If I met you I would fire APCR at your T49 in my 59-16, I don't load anything else because regular AP is useless for anything other than tier7 games.

 

The cost of the premium ammo is completely unbalanced though, not in the sense that it's too cheap, but in the sense that high alpha guns are much cheaper to fire premium out of than high rof guns.

 

 

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I'll agree that something needs to be done with premium ammo. While I do generally think a hard cap would be the answer, that would cause issues for a few tanks like the E100 which are almost designed to run high premium loads.

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Without APCR, I'd have to use HE for half my shots in a tier 9 game when I'm driving an IS-6.  Actually, if they took Gold rounds for credits out of the game, it would be a Sea of HE in some games and tanks with heavy armor might actually matter again.

 

Just adding the opinion of a middling Tanker to balance the discussion.

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I don´t mind them removing gold ammo from the game, although, my KV-5 might get problems with it's 167 pen in tier 9 games.

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I don't understand, what is the problem with people using premium rounds when they don't need them?  They would hurt you just as much with standard ammo so the only one losing out is the one shooting.

 

And if they are using it when they do need to then, umm, well, that's what it is for isn't it?

 

And how do you set a cap on premium rounds, other than doing it tank by tank which will lead to endless arguments I don't see a way.  As you mention, the E100 is really only viable with a good stock of HEAT.

 

Even if you set it to 2 shells per tank, that's about all your average baddie in a KV-1S gets off in a battle anyway, if they manage that.

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I think you've identified a symptom, but not the disease.

 

The real problem, in my opinion, is what has happened to the economy over the last several months.  More premium tanks, more premium tank sales, and missions providing hundreds of thousands of essentially free credits every day.  This has led to a few issues.  Primarily, the ability to be a profitible full time potato at tier 10.  Additionally, the issue you have identified, the proliferation of premium ammo.  When credits are meaningless, there is no penalty for stupid deaths or prem spam. 

 

Insightful as always Deus :-)

 

If I met you I would fire APCR at your T49 in my 59-16, I don't load anything else because regular AP is useless for anything other than tier7 games.

 

The cost of the premium ammo is completely unbalanced though, not in the sense that it's too cheap, but in the sense that high alpha guns are much cheaper to fire premium out of than high rof guns.

Without APCR, I'd have to use HE for half my shots in a tier 9 game when I'm driving an IS-6.  Actually, if they took Gold rounds for credits out of the game, it would be a Sea of HE in some games and tanks with heavy armor might actually matter again.

 

Just adding the opinion of a middling Tanker to balance the discussion.

 

Look, I carry SPrem in my tanks too, but never very much. Most of the time my IS-6 is firing AP, same goes for my KV-5 and just about every other tank. I pretty much only switch to SPrem ammo when facing tanks I know I will have trouble penning or that need to go fast.

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I don't understand, what is the problem with people using premium rounds when they don't need them?  They would hurt you just as much with standard ammo so the only one losing out is the one shooting.

 

And if they are using it when they do need to then, umm, well, that's what it is for isn't it?

 

And how do you set a cap on premium rounds, other than doing it tank by tank which will lead to endless arguments I don't see a way.  As you mention, the E100 is really only viable with a good stock of HEAT.

 

Even if you set it to 2 shells per tank, that's about all your average baddie in a KV-1S gets off in a battle anyway, if they manage that.

 

Here's the thing, firing SPrem at a tank that you can reliably pen with AP is just crazy. 

 

As Deus said, it's a strong sign that something is wonky with the game economy when silver is so meaningless that people will just carry a full load of SPrem even when they don't need it. 

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Setting a cap on prem rounds screws good players, and does nothing to bad players. As Homerpointed out, most baddies only fire and hit 2-3 shots a game, so the cap does nothing to them.

 

 

Also, this would require a MAJOR rebalancing  of all tanks, as we all know many tanks are balanced around their sprem rounds.

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Setting a cap on prem rounds screws good players, and does nothing to bad players. As Homerpointed out, most baddies only fire and hit 2-3 shots a game, so the cap does nothing to them.

 

 

Also, this would require a MAJOR rebalancing  of all tanks, as we all know many tanks are balanced around their sprem rounds.

 

No.

 

According the FTR WG balancs tank based on their standard non-SPRem round primarily. SPrem round balance is only bothered with if there is supposedly some major impact as with T5 HEAT Derps.

 

And good players do not need SPrem to do well...

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No.

 

According the FTR WG balancs tank based on their standard non-SPRem round primarily. SPrem round balance is only bothered with if there is supposedly some major impact as with T5 HEAT Derps.

 

And good players do not neat SPrem to do well...

 

No

 

Pls stop believing every nonsense WG is spreading through FTR. For example the claim that ony ~1% of ALL fired shots is SPrem. The number might be right, but is still BS, if you take the time to think about it for a while. Nothing else than propaganda and misinformation - Goebbels would be proud of WG.

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No

 

Pls stop believing every nonsense WG is spreading through FTR. For example the claim that ony ~1% of ALL fired shots is SPrem. The number might be right, but is still BS, if you take the time to think about it for a while. Nothing else than propaganda and misinformation - Goebbels would be proud of WG.

 

Tin-foil hat much?

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They just need to rework premium ammo like they did on the SU-100Y , lower pen more dmg or higher pen less dmg , problem solved

 

And the 1% thing is probably true with all the machine guns running around T1 shooting normal ammo , it'd be interesting to see what the percent is at T9 

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SP use does not seem to be an issue to me simply because it is available to all.  Maybe this is what bothers many.  Good players are troubled by the fact that somebody less skilled has a crutch that might even the odds ever so slightly.

 

Maybe if I drove more heavy armor tanks and less paper tanks I would feel differently.  In a paper tank it doesn't much matter what the enemy is shooting.

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As much as I use it ( and I do it liberally ) I wish they either allowed 2-3 for Hail Mary shots, removed it altogether or reworked it so that there is a serious trade off while using them, sorta like AP vs HE. Of course it's nice to have them because MM makes little to no sense most if the time and sprem gives you a fighting chance when you're completely outgunned and outarmored by most of the enemy. But at the same time it often makes me more "courageous" (read: stupid) because, hey, I can pen that, no need to execute some cunning maneuver. On the other side of the coin one often enough is not sure whether they can make proper use of their armor. All in all, I'm quite firmly against them if only because they're instilling some pretty bad habits/tactics in my own gameplay.

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What about lowering the damage of gold rounds and keeping pen where it is? Now you have to decided what is more important.

Also is it possible the 59-16 had a gold round loaded and it wasn't meant for you. You probably just happen to pop up as the next target and he needed to get the shot off and couldn't reload. I am sure that situation has happened to everyone.

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I don't understand, what is the problem with people using premium rounds when they don't need them?  They would hurt you just as much with standard ammo so the only one losing out is the one shooting.

 

And if they are using it when they do need to then, umm, well, that's what it is for isn't it?

 

And how do you set a cap on premium rounds, other than doing it tank by tank which will lead to endless arguments I don't see a way.  As you mention, the E100 is really only viable with a good stock of HEAT.

 

Even if you set it to 2 shells per tank, that's about all your average baddie in a KV-1S gets off in a battle anyway, if they manage that.

 

 

Setting a cap on prem rounds screws good players, and does nothing to bad players. As Homerpointed out, most baddies only fire and hit 2-3 shots a game, so the cap does nothing to them.

 

 

Also, this would require a MAJOR rebalancing  of all tanks, as we all know many tanks are balanced around their sprem rounds.

 

 

Mixing responses to both of these together.

 

I'm all for limiting premium rounds.  I think that 90+% of the tanks in the game could simply be limited to a certain percentage of their ammo loads as premium.  Maybe 5 or 10%.  The only tanks that would require any kind of special balancing are those which are designed around the use of premium ammo.  Why?  Because options lead to better, more tactical game play. 

 

Firing a premium round should be a conscious decision.  You should feel that you are expending a limited resource, similar to the choice of using a repair kit.  Many games use limited, high power resources to great effect.  I wouldn't mind seeing their price increase as well, at least for the previously mentioned 90%.  Make premium use a meaningful choice.

 

As for why unlimited premium is bad?  It serves to negate armor, which is one of the key balancing aspects of the game.  It offers a too-easy solution to a problem.  History has shown that prem use favors good players, but I'd gladly give up that edge for more tactical gameplay. 

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Maybe a clan wars or tournament limit on premium would lead to more tactical gameplay in those arenas?  Was the original question pub focused only?

 

Don't players regularly load full premium in clan wars (I don't have any first hand experience) just to get that tiny advantage?  Would it be beneficial to clan wars to take away this option?  It might for all I know.

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they should immediate remove credit for premium shell on premium tanks, because most of those prem tank get pref MM due to "underpowered" gun, and in some way they still can profit if they make shot count.

 

then, start to figure to see how much gold shell is used in high tier MM.

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Tin-foil hat much?

So then you agree with WG's claim that SPREM is ~1% of all fired ammo? In that case, hardly seems like a problem, no?

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