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What are the simplest things every player could do to improve their play?: RBS Article Sourcing

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Competence at a lower tier rarely translates to competence at a higher one

 

Competence at a higher one translates well into competence at a lower one.

 

Would you say that is because they average skill level of the players are higher in general or because the tanks and gameplay is less forgiving at higher tiers?

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Yeah, I'd say not rushing up the tiers is good advice. Not that there's anything that can really prepare you for the 3-4 jump, or the 7-8, or (to a lesser extent) the 9-10 jump, but if you're not understanding the mechanics at 3 you're going to get absolutely wrecked at 4. Same when you try to go 7-8; the huge guns at 10 will absolutely punish you if you don't know how to play your tank's strengths and hide its weaknesses.

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1. Competence at a lower tier rarely translates to competence at a higher one

 

2. Competence at a higher one translates well into competence at a lower one.

 

 

 

1. Sure thing. After all, no one learns until they get to tier VIII.

1.a Incompetence at lower tiers nearly always continues to the higher tiers. If you don't grasp it at tier V, jumping to tier VIII ASAP will likely result in zero improvement.

 

2. No shit.

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Stop posing extremist false dichotomies, all of you.

 

Rushing up the tree is self-evidently bad.  Rushing means you're going over your head and not really understanding the various intricacies that layer in on the way up.

 

However, Ech is somewhat right that, beyond learning the basics, going up is good for continued development, and grinding 100s of games at each tier isn't a magic bullet, or even good advice.

 

There's no magic number of games...a well-read and studied textual learner could consume dozens of guides, learn the wiki inside and out, and be ready for tier 10 at the 1k mark.  On the other hand, the DIY guy who learns by doing might take 4k games or more to learn by doing well enough to survive in 10s.  Neither is universally correct, and the only useful advice that can be posed is to move up and grow when you're ready, but only when you're ready.  Ultimately it comes down to the judgement of the player in question what "ready" is.  Some undoubtedly make the wrong judgement, but short of replay analysis or platooning, none of us can say with much certainty whether a player would be served by moving up.

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Would you say that is because they average skill level of the players are higher in general or because the tanks and gameplay is less forgiving at higher tiers?

 

Lower tiers mean you're up against worse opposition, the metagame is also VERY different at low tiers than higher ones. Low tiers mean that tanks have relatively higher DPM resulting in a more aggressive and faster game that at high tiers, high tiers are vision games.

 

Clubbing seals doesn't help you learn.

 

1. Sure thing. After all, no one learns until they get to tier VIII.

1.a Incompetence at lower tiers nearly always continues to the higher tiers. If you don't grasp it at tier V, jumping to tier VIII ASAP will likely result in zero improvement.

 

2. No shit.

 

1. People learn by taking the time to read up on their tanks and learning, not by crashing their car over hundreds of games until they get a 50% license simply because all the accumulated XP allows them to club low tier newbies simply based on all the crew competence they've accrued alone.

2. So why the fuck not learn high tier competence FIRST, and then get low tier competence for free?

 

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I think one thing that the "learn at high tiers" crowd overlooks is that most people have limited resistance to pain and need some sense of achievement. Tiers 5-7 are a good environment to learn the basics simply because any improvement almost immediately translates into better results. When I came back to this game with a resolution to take it seriously this time and improve, I played lots of games in T49 and T-34. Sure, it didn't teach me as much as playing T32 and Pershing did (my first T8s), but it did give me the sense that "I can do that too" - that I too can get the kind of epic battles that I previously only saw in unicum replays. This sense of achievement helped me endure the initial pain of learning to play at t8-9, which IMO does have some value. If someone just rushes to T8 and only starts seriously learning there, there is a high risk that they will eventually give up, thinking that it is hopeless and that they are doomed to forever be mediocre. I don't even want to imagine how painful it would be to start at t8 without understanding weakspots or basic vision mechanics, and without knowledge of good spots on maps.

 

And yeah, I'm still playing way too many t6-7 games, but that is because I'm grinding way too many lines at once due to my inability to concentrate.

Besides, it doesn't take that much time to learn to dominate at T5, once the player resolves to improve, picks one tank and equips it properly, 200-300 games should suffice.

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LEARNING TO DOMINATE LOW TIERS DOESN'T TEACH YOU SHIT

 

all you become is a shitty t49/hellcat padder that can't accomplish even 2k dpg in tier 10, because high tier meta game is much different than clubbing 50% crew reds.

 

virtually every uni I know rushed up the tiers, getting their tanks as fast as possible, albeit with a few lower tier money makers.

 

seriously, look at any non-reroll legit playa uni, they got good because they wanted a high tier tank, and they played tanks going up the tier until they got their goal. For a lot of the old unis this was the tiger 2, for me it was the t9 pershing, we didn't stop to club  seals, we just rushed to get our goal tank.

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Things that learning to dominate at mid tiers does teach you:

1. That this kind of results is achievable for you (as I described at length previously, that's motivational)

2. The value of conserving hitpoints for late-game

3. The value of vision control

4. The value of relocating/retreating

 

Sure, it doesn't teach you HOW to do these things at high tiers, given the differences in meta-game, but it does show you WHAT you want to be able to do. Sure, you could get the same from just watching unicum replays (assuming you would understand what you would be seeing, which is debatable), but imho nothing beats first-hand experience.

 

I don't have a T10 tank yet, but I'm pretty sure I could achieve 2k dpg, given that I've been running close to that at t9 for some time.

 

Oh, and if you were checking my stats and battle counts, a small explanation - the majority of my t5 and about half of my t6 games (including most of my hellcat stats) come from my first time playing this game over a year ago, where I made the mistake of stopping at t6 and being content with ok-ish results there. I then came back to this game after half a year break and re-learned it taking it more seriously this time. So I can certainly see where you are coming from - stopping at t5-6 and being content with mediocreness is certainly a danger, but so is failing your way to t10 and in the process becoming convinced that you will never be good, as so many people do. Neither of the extremist approaches is good, imho.

And as far a your unicum friends are concerned, didn't most of them do what you described a year or two ago, when the game was still new and the "barrier of entry" at high tiers was lower? Remember, the longer the game keeps running, the bigger the advantage that people who've been playing at t10 since its early days have over the ones that are new to it.

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this has been probably been stated before. 

Play EVERY Nation and every type of tank. doing so makes it so that you know how the enemy's tank plays. just playing 1 Type of tank or nation makes you an extremely weak player. a 54%er who play only German Heavy tanks is weaker than say a 51%er who plays Every single nation and every single type of tank.

Also Don't worry about accuracy so much for the most part it is a negligible stat.

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Play EVERY Nation and every type of tank. doing so makes it so that you know how the enemy's tank plays. just playing 1 Type of tank or nation makes you an extremely weak player.

 

We all like anecdotal evidence here, right? -> I haven't played any heavy tanks or artillery, yet have no trouble dealing with them.

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We all like anecdotal evidence here, right? -> I haven't played any heavy tanks or artillery, yet have no trouble dealing with them.

Common sense is lacking in you isn't it. Knowing how a tank performs gives you the edge. This is true for anything in life.

Imagine player a/B are playing say need for speed.(Any of them) Player A knows how Player B's care performs. Player B does not. Player A has the advantage.

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Common sense is lacking in you isn't it. Knowing how a tank performs gives you the edge. This is true for anything in life.

Imagine player a/B are playing say need for speed.(Any of them) Player A knows how Player B's care performs. Player B does not. Player A has the advantage.

So checking a tank stats is harder then grinding it?

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this has been probably been stated before. 

Play EVERY Nation and every type of tank. doing so makes it so that you know how the enemy's tank plays. just playing 1 Type of tank or nation makes you an extremely weak player. a 54%er who play only German Heavy tanks is weaker than say a 51%er who plays Every single nation and every single type of tank.

Also Don't worry about accuracy so much for the most part it is a negligible stat.

Well this is partially true. When I had around ~1000 battles branching out to get the feel of other tanks did help me, but you don't really have to branch out too far. Knowing the 'feel' of other tanks can help, and when I got my KV1 I got that feel, but it's not that necessary and it's especially not necessary for specialized players. And it's REALLY not necessary to play every nation and every tank line...

Take Scouty for example, I have no idea who gave him negative points, that dude  plays scouts most of the time, yet I saw him demolish higher tier heavies in his ELC and do more damage in the first 4-5 minutes of the game in his T-43 than I did in my Tiger for the whole match... He encountered enough of them to know how to approach them and what their weaknesses are. He specialized in light tanks and instead of experiencing every other tank and their weaknesses in general, he knows how to fight most other tanks in his light tanks which is IMO more important.

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I never said anything about clubbing seals, especially not in OP vehicles, nor did I say anything about dominating low tiers with multi skilled crews.

 

There is a distinct difference between working your way up through the tiers aggressively and quickly, training crews, unlocking modules, as well as learning the game, as opposed to power grinding up through the tiers, using up all the free experience you get just to unlock every vehicle, skipping useful modules, and rushing to die in every battle, just so you can earn more in another battle.

 

The first works well, so long as the players learns along the way. The second is why you see <45% tier X losers.

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Knowing how a tank performs gives you the edge.

 

The point is that you can observe pretty well how a tank performs by playing against it. It just takes a few engagements to get a feel for your opponent's gun depression, traverse speed, aim time, reload time, etc.

 

Take Scouty for example [...]

 

Stop flattering me, you're being way too nice! :D

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The point is that you can observe pretty well how a tank performs by playing against it. It just takes a few engagements to get a feel for your opponent's gun depression, traverse speed, aim time, reload time, etc.

 

 

 

Stop flattering me, you're being way too nice! :D

i disagree. You have to play the tank to know more of the important stuff. how reliable you can be penned, the feel for the gun ETC. you have to be hands on to have a decent understanding of the tank and it's limitations. kind of like how you can take drivers Ed but until you actually get a feel for driving until you actually drive. you won't really know how it feels. 

And it doesn't help that players who only play 1 nation/Class of tank are limited in their effectiveness.

The b

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A section on the basics of side scraping would be helpful to new and improving players.

1: Understanding which kind of tanks can or can't employ it due to armor considerations.

2: Understanding what kind of terrain and positions allow it.

3. Understanding how to dig out tanks using it, or leaving to reposition.

Lots of new players will dump round after round at your sides and tracks until they are dead with 8 hits and no damage to show for it.

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Heavies hanging out in the back might as well be AFK. All the other tanks are there to support heavies – give them something to support. 

Some heavies are better suited for being slightly behind (Tiger I - low armor) and sniping. Being a low tier heavy in a high tier match means you should be also slightly behind - but it is very tank dependant and map situational.

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I realize you want to play with your friends, but a Platoon of 3 x 47%ers will make you lose at least 56% of the time.

 

Math Idiot here.  Can you explain please?  How does 3 x 47 = 56?  Told ya I was a math Idiot didn't I?

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Math Idiot here.  Can you explain please?  How does 3 x 47 = 56?  Told ya I was a math Idiot didn't I?

I think he means 53 percent, not 56.

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On the whole low/high tier thing:

 

I think the proper way to look at it is to ask whether the player is learning something.  I mean I am still playing lots of mid tiers and trying to get a 6th sense crew on every line going up and I know I am learning things and I can see it reflected in stats.  For example in the past week I consciously practiced side scraping with autobounce angles and I learned a number of things about setting it up and likes and won a few encounters that I couldn't before, ones I'd disengage from previously.

 

However just playing games does not always translate to learning.  Sometimes one simply can not imagine a better way to play the game and nothing is learned, other times one learns about ideas that works only work against bad players or only works because hellpadder is so OP in so many ways. 

 

For example, I have started playing defensively while giving up map control. as most mid tier pubs don't know how to attack but will die horribly to any reasonable defensive setup.  Smarter players would look at the deployment and go somewhere else.

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1. You can shoot tanks even if you can't see them, and you can be shot even when you are not spotted.

2. Use your 6th Sense to detect if tanks can see you. I know this sounds obvious, but it isn't to most people. Pop your tanks fron fender out, pop  back. 6th Sense light up? Well, then someone is looking at you and waiting to blow your ass up.

3. I'll get flamed for this one, but I don't care. Play arty to learn how to avoid arty. Play arty to learn where people camp. Play arty to appreciate good players using good sight lines.

4. Know your view range; that circle around you on the minimap. Know which tanks to shoot at while they are inside your circle and which to not shoot at.

5. Always have an escape plan no matter where you are on map. It could be the ditch behind you, a building, a hill. Doesn't matter, but you should be aware of it before you start firing away.

6. The 'S' key on your keyboard should be your favorite.

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Math Idiot here.  Can you explain please?  How does 3 x 47 = 56?  Told ya I was a math Idiot didn't I?

Guessing, but:

Assume 48% is the WR of a play that has no impact on the game (positive or negative). Any player with a lower WR actually reduces the team chance to win.

Each 47% player reduces the chance to win by 1%. Put all of them on one team, chance reduced by 3% from 47% to 44% (56% loss).

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Holy necro batman, this thread was dead 5 months ago...

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