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KraftLawrence

Are people playing too passively these days?

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These days, I notice a lot of people are playing much more conservatively as before. They protect their hp so hard. 3v1 against an E-100? No one wants to poke first to eat the shell - even if they're high hp. Only 2 tier 10s on each side of Airfield? Better camp in a JPE-100. This is something I’ve noticed for a while now – mostly in the average pubbie and in greens/greenicums/blurples. I single out this group of people because they care the most about their stats and their damage. They just started getting them and they like them. Or maybe they really need their stats to get into a top5 clan or something – who knows. Or maybe this segment of players thinks that damage alone wins games. Real purples who have been purple for a while actually don’t give a shit about stats and try to win (unless you’re kewei or a kewei disciple).

 

More than once in the past few weeks I’ve ragequit a few “wotlabs” platoons because it’s like “dude you’re full hp, can’t you use it? Are you honestly looking for a meatshield when you’re a top tier heavy?” People are scared to spend a single hp to actually accomplish pushes – which I think are key to actually winning. Sure, damage whoring is nice but it’s honestly not how games are won. Yea sure, it pads WN8 or WN7 or WNwhatever, but it’s not how you actually win games (unless you consistently do kewei levels of damage I guess).

 

I think it’s all the advice purples are giving on forum about hp conservation and playing in an attrition style. I mean, if someone wants to start improving at solopubbing, most of advice I see is “play attrition. Support fire. Flex where you can support.” The problem is, if everyone is doing that, nothing gets done. You can’t push anything without any hp. You can’t take map objectives. And honestly, in a platoon, it’s just annoying if you’re just using your platoonmate as a meat shield and have no intention of using your hp at all.

 

Has anyone else noticed people playing in an overly hp-conservation style? Or is it just that I’m trying too hard to apply CW/tourney style strategy to pubbing?

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I have to agree with you Kraft. It is one of the reasons that I am taking a break. I have been grinding the Japanese medium line, to tier 7, and I kept getting frustrated in tier 8 or tier 9 matches where a heavy I was next to would be too scared to eat a single shell so I could try and flank. A few times this led to us sitting 2 v 1 while the other flank folded or the enemy tank got reinforcements, a minute later. Maybe it is just because of how I play the game (look at my survival rate) but it is incredibly frustrating. I play mostly heavies so I don't mind eating a shell if it gives me or my team a tactical advantage but a lot of people are unwilling to eat 500 damage to knock out a tank. Carbon is right that the high alpha at upper tiers contributes to this timidness but at some point people have to eat a shell or two to achieve something.

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yea that always works well lol. especially with pants last night - "so where do you want me to blunder down with my E100 this game?" gud stuff xD

Pants is very conservative, but to be fair to him, that draw was unavoidable. Our first E-100 did try to go down and spot and ended up spotting a little and died with no damage. I can't blame him for not pushing down the hill with us behind in tanks and them having waffle, 183 and another TD or 2 waiting. Unfortunately I was in Leo, the one med I can't yolo with.

On a relevant note: timely aggression is a must for consistent victory. It's just hard for people to know when it's the right time to be aggressive.

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Well, these days you never know when a 183, 155 or WTF100 might pop out of nowhere and rape you in the name of balance.

 

But mostly people are just pussies.

 

This in conjunction with this..

 

Carbon is right that the high alpha at upper tiers contributes to this timidness but at some point people have to eat a shell or two to achieve something.

 

The problem isn't 850 alpha from 268, E3 and E4 so much as the alpha of a 183, or the clip of a 155 or even worse the disgustingly op clip of a WT100.

 

You make one little mistake of overextending around a corner and you're dead, because these tanks will shove their shit down your throat and then proceed to the next sucker in line.

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no i'm not being sarcastic or anything, i liked playing with pants. a lot of people I know wouldn't have yolo'd down the hill on the redshire game to take out the AC48.

 

also we went like 7 wins 1 draw 0 loss so that helped...

Ah yes, that AC was quite a pain.

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This in conjunction with this..

 

 

The problem isn't 850 alpha from 268, E3 and E4 so much as the alpha of a 183, or the clip of a 155 or even worse the disgustingly op clip of a WT100.

 

You make one little mistake of overextending around a corner and you're dead, because these tanks will shove their shit down your throat and then proceed to the next sucker in line.

I would agree that the clip of the Foch or the potential 183 1 shot is a problem but the problem I think Kraft is getting at is people unwilling to even eat any damage, even a shell that is only 400-500 damage, ie from a heavy. I can understand if people don't want to corner against a td but when they will not do it against a heavy that is where I have my issues.

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I've noticed it myself Kraft.. whats worse, it that I see it being done by more of the high skilled players then any other.. which I've noticed leads to alot more losses nowadays when you have the awesome team. I personally think the WN8 guideline for damage has brought alot of this on.. I may be wrong, but thats just how it seems.

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But is it worse before arty nerf?

Certainly logical conclusion simply because more TD after arty nerf.

I am thinking arty caused you to move more often which link to make quicker decision instead wait to see what happens next.

Well random thought anyway

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Well, these days you never know when a 183, 155 or WTF100 might pop out of nowhere and rape you in the name of balance.

 

But mostly people are just pussies.

Yup yup.

 

Plus in pubs, it is really difficult to get people to coordinate or follow up on an initial "sacrifice"   If I'm out there and I bounce a shell, it is really tough to ensure my teamates know that the enemy is on reload.  In CW or Companies i can give a shout out and now I am 100% sure my teamates know that enemy is vulnerable. 

 

But the current TD meta is just painful for an "Active" playstyle--with huge camo, huge alpha, TDs have mastered the art of not being seen (with apologies to Monty Python).    This is a casual observation of the queue w/o rigor but for every heavy there are 2 TDS in the queue.  Watching last night the population in Queue was ~30-40 heavy, 30-40 med, 70-80 TDs, 70-80 lights.

 

Even in my "I saw Kraft" game--I sat spotting your entire team (and iwas like HOLY CRAP look at Kraft being all YOLO and stuff leading the fight up on  the hill!), no one took a shot--I got spotted when your team's WTF E100 decided to YOLO forward.  I took a single shot at him exposing my potision and was promtply hit by 3 tanks and died before I could move.  Not a single one of the TDs behind me would shoot at a WTF E100 or 183 for fear of the reponse.  In my case it was a poor trade.  1 shot from a T62 on a WTF E100 and I was out of the game in return--not a good exchange, and it was the WTF E100 derp charging forward that got me.  Its like a vicous cycle that we cannot break out of.

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I've been going through a transitional phase that I hope will take me towards the next level of play (eventually when I figure it all out, right now it's dragging my stats down quite a bit).  I'm finally getting more aggressive.  

 

When I solo I'm still very conservative early in the match because I don't want to be the guy that eats a 183 round, but once I'm able to determine the rough positions of the tanks I'm most concerned about I get aggressive, whereas before I would just be passively farming damage the entire game.  Before if I was in my T10 RU medium I'd sit back and snipe even to take out a lone target.  Now if I find a lone target and am reasonably sure I won't get WTF-100'd or 183'd I'll push that target and brawl them or get in behind them.  Brawling and closer quarter combat have long been my weak points and I've avoided them because of that.  I finally realized that I won't get any better at brawling if I avoid it forever and am now forcing myself to do it so that I do get better at it, and it's starting to pay off.  Of course I adjust my level of passive/aggressive based upon my relative tier, tank comps, and level of skill on both sides of the match also.

 

In platoon play I've made it a goal to be more aggressive, or at least keep my gun in the game.  If I'm not shooting and have no reason to believe I'll have anything to shoot at very soon I've been relocating or pushing harder.  I'm still working the bugs out but I think I'm starting to see the results.

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I think this is the reason why my recent WN8 has been stuck around 2000.  My potato games fall into 2 categories; I'm either too aggressive or too passive.  Erring on the side of passivity early on often leads to yield better results for me over all as I'm keeping my gun in the game longer and it seems like I have a better chance of effecting the outcome.  However, I've been trying with mixed success with a more aggressive play style in heavies and mediums, which either works fantastic and I'm able to push the tempo of the game and force the enemy into making mistakes or I get taken out early causing me to revert to my more passive play style.

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Platoon with me more. You get all the yolo and none of the swag.

 

Heh, Oke, we need our medium wolfpacks together again. I miss jumping unsuspecting heavies with our two bats in sync. 

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I think it's a common issue with people who are average. It's way easier to play passively and in the way it's punished is often in the indirect way of your team dying instead of you which some doesn't see the big importance of and to top it off it usually lets you get loads of empty damage as the last remaining enemy derp rushes to get some last XP ineffectively which can feel rewarding.

 

The problem with playing aggressive is that you usually can't count on your team to capitalize on it and it can also be hard to predict what might be beyond the corners. I'm currently trying to learn when I should be aggressive and when to support as I find those are very hard to answer especially when you solo-pub.

 

I've died plenty of times doing uncalculated aggressive moves that might've been unnecessary but then again I feel like I've lost many battles because I've been too passive while another flank has fallen. It's a hard journey to find that perfect sweet spot and being able to judge risks and rewards more accurately. 

 

 

To reply to the "arty nerf" reason. I think that's wrong. One of the most passive games I've had was a 5 arty on each side. Both teams sat in arty cover and those who exposed themselves got minced. But in general I think the prevelance of TD's do encourage camping as TD's suck at pushing and getting caught in the open while they excell at sitting in bushes.

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I don't think it has anything to do with greens/blues protecting their new stats. I think it is all about how at different stages of improvement people play. When you are a yellow your playing is mostly chaotic. You derp and herp and you camp. You do lots of wrong things and some much right things. You play actively but badly. A red just plays passively and really badly. A blue tries to fix the bad by being more passive. The less things you do the less mistakes you make.

But the first thing you do when you start improving is to reduce the yoloing. I think when you have just got your blue winratio/wn8 you are in your most passive state in regards to playstyle. You have eliminated your yolos very efficiently but you have not yet mastered the art of gud yolo. By reducing your yolos I don't mean reducing the derp games, I just mean the games where you play aggressively and take calculated risks. A new blue tries to minimize risk in order to stay alive. This sometimes means overly passive gameplay simply because a blue is still a yellow who knows where to shoot, how to angle his tank but isn't able to read the battle.

Once a blue starts to become purple the aggressiveness comes back. Not only because improved understanding of map tactics and tank strengths but because of improved ability to read the battle. At least that is how I see it personally. I think I'm typical blue. My game reading skill is totally shit so I try to fix it by making less mistakes. I don't camp 2vs1 situations though.

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But is it worse before arty nerf?

Certainly logical conclusion simply because more TD after arty nerf.

I am thinking arty caused you to move more often which link to make quicker decision instead wait to see what happens next.

Well random thought anyway

It was worse. No one wants to move on open maps with 5 arties on each side. Campers will camp, they simply switched from camping in arty to camping in TD. The dispersion buff and camo buff lead to the rise of TD's. Before the dispersion buff all I hear is how frustrating TD's are with long reloaded shell drifting to tracks and grounds.

I've been hit full on the move in my Bat multiple times, my other mediums don't even have a chance. When you're the only red dot on the map and 5 arties barrage you with prem round splash radius, moving doesn't do you jack. I hate camping and slow games and that's why my hate for arties was only topped by Garbad.

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I dont think it is arty nerf but TD buff.  They just happened at the same time so people conflate the two.  WIth the intro of the new german TD line as well as the British super-death star, TDs have taken over as the FOTM (previous holder Heavy autloaders).  If you look in CW, TDs have a strong presence, but heavies working together still make the meat of a team.  Solo=TD.  Team=Heavies.

 

Converstaion moving too fast:

 

It was worse. No one wants to move on open maps with 5 arties on each side. Campers will camp, they simply switched from camping in arty to camping in TD. The dispersion buff and camo buff lead to the rise of TD's. Before the dispersion buff all I hear is how frustrating TD's are with long reloaded shell drifting to tracks and grounds.

I've been hit full on the move in my Bat multiple times, my other mediums don't even have a chance. When you're the only red dot on the map and 5 arties barrage you with prem round splash radius, moving doesn't do you jack. I hate camping and slow games and that's why my hate for arties was only topped by Garbad.

 

Good point on the dispersion change--this killed mobility (aka mediums, scouts,  and high tier heavies) as well as armor (just aim for the cupola!).  Thus its about camo, view range and alpha. 

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