Jump to content
IntrepidWoT

Please Read Before Neg Rep- An Informal Study, Unicums and Artillery

Unicums and Artillery  

243 members have voted

  1. 1. What server do you play on?

  2. 2. My recent WR/WN8 (Whichever is your best) is:

  3. 3. My feelings about artillery are,

    • Fuck artillery and anyone who plays them
    • Removing artillery would be better for the game and the best solution
    • Artillery need a major overhaul and removed if they cannot be "fixed"
    • Artillery need a major overhaul, but should stick around
    • Artillery need changes, but not a major overhaul
    • Artillery are fine as is, I don't really care either way
    • I click more than Dorothy's heels when she's trying to get home


Recommended Posts

I don't want a General Discussion quality meltdown about artillery. I just want to try and gather a little data from the best resource of unicums in NA, SEA and EU I'm aware of.

 

Before launching immediately into "Save this shit for the general forums. You're so green you piss chlorophyl." neg rep marathon (and thanks to all those who shielded from this with kind upvotes), please bear with me just a second. I know artillery is one of those topics very likely to turn to shit, and one that's been covered a few thousand times, but I believe the intent and goal for this particular poll avoid it being a shit post. Just to be triply safe, I'm placing it in Shenanigans. If my judgment is off, as I can't see this being a poll the forum would take issue with, please accept my apologies in advance and go gentle, I've tried to be a humble contributor... most of the time. 

 

I have the impression that unicums, superunicums especially, tend to feel a certain way about artillery. Not all, but in majority. This is how I feel having read the official forums for a long time, threads here, seeing what vehicles players in driving in game. Yet, I realized in discussing the topic elsewhere I'm basing this off of the type of observation that is very prone to confirmation bias. I would like to get a sense, as best I can, of how true a statement this is: "As you improve and become better at World of Tanks, you are more likely to take issue with artillery's implementation because of its negative effects on gameplay." I'd like to try and do that by correlating votes to a player's stats.

 

The spoiler contains a detailed description of what some of these negative effects are (provided only to ensure it cannot be misinterpreted as "unicums don't like dying to artillery"), pulled from another thread I started elsewhere.

 

Tanks 

 

·         WarGaming has invested significant resources into attempting to accurately model the armor layouts of individual tanks. You’ve gone on research trips to actually measure live tanks to find out how thick armor is at various points, whether or not it’s spaced, the angles of various armor plates. This works in concert with your shell modelling, and has produced a game that has found a new way to reward aim. Whereas most games with FPS style controls reward twitch aim and precision accuracy, World of Tanks rewards thoughtfulness and knowledge.

·         World of Tanks has an excellent tank movement model that gives you a sense of weight and momentum. This provides new tools for tank balance by adjusting various aspects of mobility to allow tank pilots to identify areas of terrain that work in their favor and enemy opponents over which they have an advantage. This offsets some advantages in the power of a tanks guns or its armor. Again an excellent mechanic that brings depth to the game.

·         Gun handling variables also play into tank balance and gameplay styles. Some players prefer in your face brawling and do not care about things like stability on the move, long distance accuracy or gun depression. Others prefer to be masters of the field, taking advantage of accurate guns and excellent gun depression to harass the enemy from afar.

·         Vision mechanics also add to the depth of the game, giving players a new tool to use as their knowledge of the game increases that allows them to use tanks with weaker armor or slower rates of fire to deal damage from relative safety. It’s a stealthy playstyle, one that rewards careful approaches and precision attacks.

·         All of these combine and work in concert with terrain for the maps. The maps have increasingly added small variations in terrain where all these mechanics come into play to allow experienced tank pilots to use their tank to the fullest and adapt unique, one of a kind playstyles that make them instantly recognizable.

·         Players that recognize these elements are given the incentive to learn them, which gives them a greater appreciation of the effort you’ve put into the game’s mechanics. Even if they have not yet mastered them, driving in tanks that make use of these mechanics exposes players to them and provides new, tangible goals to work towards. They may even prompt a player to try out a new tank line as they find their preferred playstyle fits well with tank attributes that exist in tanks they do not yet own.

 

 Artillery 

 

·         Artillery exist outside nearly all of these dynamics. Accurate armor modelling is only a tangential concern if a concern at all. You are able to play artillery from tier 1 to tier 10 without having any knowledge of tank armor outside of “this tank is hard to do damage to” and “this tank is easy to damage”. Once you reach tier 10, there are no “this tank is hard to do damage to”. All the work in accurately modelling specific armor plates on tanks is wasted.

·         Tank movement means little or nothing. Statistics show that artillery move less than any other vehicles in the game. Even ultra-slow, passive tanks such as the T95 move more than nearly every artillery vehicle in the game. Again, the intricate balance brought on by varying levels and types of tank mobility is wasted. For artillery it is only “are they slow enough to easily hit while moving” or “do I need to wait for them to sit still”.

·         Gun handling does come into play, but in a very different way. For artillery, it is all about accuracy, arc, shell speed and in a very limited way terrain's effect on the shape of their aiming circle. This is the only element where artillery actively make use of game mechanics that tanks use game to game.

·         Vision mechanics are used only in the sense that artillery rely on others to spot tanks for them. If artillery are spotted, they usually die. A very binary outcome. They do not spot for themselves, it’s too dangerous. They also normally stay in areas of the map where being spotted before their team is dead is impossible. With their ability to see any lit tank anywhere on the map, all the work put into vision mechanics is wasted with artillery.

·         Terrain is perhaps the element of the game most harmed by artillery. Excellent work has been done to provide positions in multiple areas of the map, often nearly the entire map, where tanks can go to take firing positions. Small dips and hills in the terrain provide sufficient cover for hull down combat or paths that block line of fire from entrenched TDs. With artillery, these positions become unusable. The map is essentially flattened in that, only terrain obstacles tall enough to block artillery from all likely angles provide sufficient cover for a safe firing position where a high alpha strike will not remove you from the game. The work of your map designers is significantly devalued by artillery.

·         With all of these elements missing, players that use artillery fail to be introduced to the mechanics that make this such a great game. Players that play in games with artillery, but not as artillery, also get the false impression that randomness controls their destiny and that passive, camping, peek-a-boo gameplay is the best way to play. This raises a significant barrier for both types of players to come to appreciate the work you’ve done elsewhere in the game and divides the playerbase in a fundamental way.

 

Based on your responses, I'll gather the information against your overall/recent stats. Again, I'm not trying to waste anyone's time or incite an artillery debate. If I didn't want to leave the thread open to thoughtful comments, I'd have gone poll only to ensure that couldn't happen. I don't know of any other location on the web where a thread like this could survive without devolving into a total mess. 

 

Update:

 

I looked at the account of all voters (182 at the time of recording), taking down their recent WN8, recent WR, overall WN8, overall WR, average tier, battle count and location. I've only taken the time to run one regression analysis on the numbers so far, WN8 against vote. To make this work, I assigned a numeric value to each of the voting options for artillery. To help show the spread of opinion, I made it a scale from 1-10, assigning values as follows:

 

10 = Fuck artillery and anyone who plays them

9 = Remove artillery

8 = Overhaul, but remove artillery if that's not enough

6 = Overhaul, but keep artillery

3 = Modify artillery, but no overhaul needed

2 = Artillery is fine

1 = I'm a clicker

 

I grouped the top three and bottom three together. I went back and forth on the value for overhaul but keep, and opted for it being a 6 instead of a 5 based on the severity of changes that would be required, making it almost unrecognizable to its current form.

 

The regression analysis showed that there is a statistically significant relationship between your WN8 and how you feel about artillery. Incredibly so (.000224 p-value). For those who like pictures, here's the chart. Each of those dots is the recent WN8 of a voter. The orange line shows the predicted vote based on WN8. Notice that it's sloping upward. Also notice that it wouldn't predict anyone was ok with artillery no matter how bad they are at the game. It starts at 6, "overhaul but keep".

 

ixf2b4.png

 

For recent winrate, the correlation is even stronger. Note that there appears to be fewer points of data, but this isn't the case. I just didn't have a way to look beyond the forum's left hand box and that only provides whole numbers to work with. Because of that, you only see a point of data per whole number rather than a continuous stream of winrate percentages. The p-value here was .000000656. Again the numbers are such that they wouldn't predict anyone is content with artillery, but the more skilled you are the more likely it is that you strongly dislike artillery and want them removed.

 

14e9jcw.png

 

If you take away EU votes, it's even more lopsided. EU players are more tolerant of artillery at higher skill levels than NA players. The two little dots for "I love artillery" that are unicums are both EU as are the majority of super unicums voting 6 or less. I can't speak to SEA because I didn't have enough SEA votes to make any conclusion. I'll run recent winrate and others soon, but that was enough of a confirmation to let go of my worrying that it's just confirmation bias. So, not only did 73.22% recommend either removing or, if unable after a major overhaul to fix them removing, artillery, but the better you are at WoT, the more likely you are to strongly dislike artillery.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What arty fags deserve

 

Oh, man, spoiler that stuff. Maybe it's because I'm a parent now, but those gifs are hard to watch.

 

Edited: Thanks!

Link to post
Share on other sites

1. FUCK ARTY AND ANYONE WHO PLAYS IT

2. REMOVE ARTY FROM THE GAME

 

 

Seriously though, to quote myself:

Nobody is saying arty is OP

Arty is bullshit to fight against and doesn't add anything to the game, it only ruins the gameplay experience for everyone else and forces dull stalemates where people can't play as they want

A whole tank class based on being able to hit you anywhere while it is effectively impossible for you to hit back is retarded

Matches without artillery are much better than ones that do...

Tanks can actually push, take hits while sidescraping, go hull down, and not have to sit behind a rock because they can get oneshotted if a clicker decides to aim at them

 

It's like if in boxing they gave you a random jab from behind the opponent and he's not allowed to block it

Link to post
Share on other sites

Simple idea...

 

1.  Spot tank shows up on map.

 

Simple arty "sniper mode" change

 

1.  Arty in "sniper mode" has mini map come up with spotted tank on map and aiming cursor.  Remove arties "God Mode\Satellite view" Arty can let aiming cursor shrink on dot on mini map (ie IRL arty receives grind square information \ target information from FO(forward observers\other battlefield units) and fires into said grid square. 

 

2.  To compensate for loss of "God Mode" increase arty splash damage. 

 

TL;DR ->  Take away "God Mode" and change to firing at grid square (Actual RL how arty works)

 

P\s: please don't start the shit about guided artillery, this game is based on < 1950's technology

 

Shfty©

Link to post
Share on other sites

I voted "needs a serious overhaul and removed if can't be fixed" because technically I think it can be fixed, but honestly I think it's extremely unlikely it will be fixed and removal would be better than leaving it as it is.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What arty fags deserve

 

*spoiler is cuz people die

Surprise motherfucker, 30 day RO. - Solono

 

Well, that was quick. 

 

+1 for Solono's work.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1. FUCK ARTY AND ANYONE WHO PLAYS IT

2. REMOVE ARTY FROM THE GAME

 

 

Seriously though, to quote myself:

 

 

To quote myself:

 

 

Arty in World of Tanks is like an MMA fight where the spectators have crossbows

 

 

Also, do I want to know what Worst put up before Solono came in?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, do I want to know what Worst put up before Solono came in?

 

Gifs of people dying (no way they survived) by being hit by cars at high speed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Gifs of pedestrians getting hit and most likely killed by speeding cars, and a gif of a modern day stoning (bricking in this case).

Link to post
Share on other sites

1. FUCK ARTY AND ANYONE WHO PLAYS IT

2. REMOVE ARTY FROM THE GAME

 

 

Seriously though, to quote myself:

Quote

^ I totally agree with that, in that it's not necessarily OP like it used to be, but it's still a broken mechanic; in a game all about LoS, you can't have a unit that basically disregards it for all intents and purposes, and can't be effectively countered in a manner where you can gain the initiative over it, since it forces you to effectively be the defending force, and thus be at a starting disadvantage. It's no fun to fight against be at the mercy of, or, from what I've heard, any fun to play after the much-needed nerf of 8.6.

 

It doesn't even behave at all like it did in real life, as that would be completely unfeasible. WT's "artillery strike" is much closer to what it really was, and WoT's rendition is merely a gameplay abomination, forcing campy gameplay and draws. 

 

Edit:

Surprise motherfucker, 30 day RO. - Solono

ic9sIDi.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it needs a SERIOUS overhaul. I don't think it needs to be removed yet, despite my best complaints about it.  but it needs to be completely redone. if there is no way to redo it to make it fair, and balanced, and take actual skill to use, and not just RNG/luck, then I think it should be removed, and to have every player who has spent XP on arty to have ALL XP refunded, and any arty currently in their garage to be fully refunded with credits/gold. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do people always present that the RU and SEA server do not exist.

 

/Offended

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do people always present that the RU and SEA server do not exist.

 

/Offended

 

Sorry! SEA I did forget about (that's not going to help with the offense), but RU... I've never seen an RU poster on the forum so I just assumed they were off unicuming somewhere else. Poll options updated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Arty should use coordinates to fire shoots, like 45 deg east, 25 deg north and 23deg gun elevation, and lets see how many targets they hit :P

 

Edit: Also implement wind, which would only affect arty, and it changes constantly, so you have to calculate with that as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never seen an RU poster on the forum so I just assumed they were off unicuming somewhere else.

 

That's because wotlabs doesn't track Russian players, you can't register RU accounts

Link to post
Share on other sites

eh, the RU playerbase has more than enough of their own things for us to matter to them. infact the SEA server and NA server combined are prob only half of the RU server. 

 

anyway, tangent... back to the topic everyone.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So when I was a pubbie I literally didn't give a shit about arty, I remember getting hit by a T92 in my jagzpz e100 for 1100 (with super heavy spall liner) and remember saying something like "hahaha arty, better luck next time).

Then I rerolled and my hate for arty went through the roof. I fear your point on confirmation bias is a valid one, but the reason I hate SPGS with a passion:

1. The power they have over gameplay - I pray for games where I can rush in and go hull down without death from above.

2. It's a ridiculously cheap way to have a major impact on the game.

3. They wank over direct pens, rewarded for being cancer, reinforcing their decision to play arty.

4. They take up the space of what could be a good player.

5. It enables a 43%er to kill a super unicum in one shot. Much like TDs, which brings me on to my next point:

If WG balanced maps to remove ridiculously long firing lanes; hello brawling, rushing, flanking etc...

The game is just too unbalanced to remove it (td camping meta best meta) but fuck me they need to make maps less prone to arty and td dominance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry! SEA I did forget about (that's not going to help with the offense), but RU... I've never seen an RU poster on the forum so I just assumed they were off unicuming somewhere else. Poll options updated.

No problem mate, voted.

 

I am okay with arty in their present state, although 3 arty per side still makes me uneasy especially on open maps. Splash based damage might also be a good direction to evolve into and it will make spall liners a relevant equipment.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...