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Rexxie

What Makes TDs OP

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I hear a lot of people saying TDs are too powerful/too easy/too hard to deal with/etc. It's usually some form of "TDs are too hard to counter" or "TDs are too hard for pubbies to counter".

 

TDs are not powerful in my eyes. I find them easy to deal with and that they're not especially difficult to handle for pubbies. I think they are not nearly as stronk at area denial as people try to tell me they are. Lastly, I feel they don't have enough of a killing power advantage over tanks to overcome their disabilities in otherwise influencing a match, and I feel like this is where some people get held up.

 

In essence, carry ability is everything (and I mean literally everything), and I don't feel TDs have it any better than other classes, regardless of the damage numbers you see them putting out.

 

I'd like you guys to try to convince me and people who share my opinion that we're wrong and TDs are the stronk ezmode class of today.

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They aren't prima fascia (whatever) OP.....

 

they just promote a REALLY shit game play style where a mistake is punished with 700 HP of fuck you.

 

Autoloading TDs are even worse.

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I don't feel they promote bad meta either. Some are bad, but the really bad ones aren't the gigantic alpha ones, they are the rare Borsig-esque "why bother he wont even light if i take the hit" TDs. I rarely see something like an ISU completely wreck the flow of a match because of its alpha.

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I see no problem with high tier TDs, either. What I do have a problem with is my pubs that insist on following the enemy TDs into the magic forests in single file.

 

By the time the second one gets blapped, I really wish I could grab the shoulder of the third one and ask him, "did you not see what happened to the first two that did that?" Srsly.

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I wouldn't say they're OP when good players play them. I'd probably rather see a purple in a Waffle E100 than a purple in a 62A.

 

But I do think that TDs, as a group, have very low skill floor. Even that orange Waffle E100 next to you can do massive damage if your team's pubs walk in front of his gun. And that is sort of bullshit.

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Didn't you write about alpha and meta and how you hate that meta? Someone even put it in their sig.

 

i've changed my mind now that they've been nerfed

 

twas crab

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They aren't op. But like was said, they promote a shitty meta and punish aggressiveness. 

Perhaps if they didn't have comparable view range to meds/lights it wouldn't be as bad. 

 

Or maybe make the time limit on each match longer. 

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As long as tank destroyers arty tank destroyers and arty have the ability to punish "mistakes" by shitting off half your health or more, and that anyone regardless of skill level can do that, I will hardly consider tank destroyers balanced

Only a few tank destroyers are meant to be aggressive, the rest feast on damage that others would have gotten anyway and they don't contribute anything positive to the match

Any tank type can sit in a bush and blast away at spotted tanks, few can actually be the spotters

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They aren't op. But like was said, they promote a shitty meta and punish aggressiveness. 

Perhaps if they didn't have comparable view range to meds/lights it wouldn't be as bad. 

 

Or maybe make the time limit on each match longer. 

I don't even know that it's a shitty meta. Basically, a successful counter to those TDs is to let them have their magic forest while you destroy the rest of their team and then swarm the hell out of them endgame. That ain't bad. Pubs just aren't patient enough to not "tardrush."

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I wouldn't say they're OP when good players play them. I'd probably rather see a purple in a Waffle E100 than a purple in a 62A.

 

But I do think that TDs, as a group, have very low skill floor. Even that orange Waffle E100 next to you can do massive damage if your team's pubs walk in front of his gun. And that is sort of bullshit.

Now give that orange not broken TD and see what happen.

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As a player who used to exclusively play TDs (I still play them pretty frequently), I can say that, despite its incredibly high alpha, the ISU (my current favorite) is by no means OP. Sure, the 700-800 damage it can deal with a single shot is pretty devastating, but its horrible gun arc, slow traverse, and general slow speed make it an incredibly team-dependent vehicle, as is the case with most TDs. In my opinion, to say a vehicle is OP is to say that that vehicle can carry a team, and there is no way a TD, esp. a turretless one, can carry a team. I'm an average player on a good day, but I've had some phenomenal 6k damage games in my ISU, and I have to admit those were only possible with the cooperation of a few abnormally communicative teams. 

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Firstly, Rexxie, I expect better from you than to use the "OP" phrasing. Let's talk about skill floors and ceilings.

 

What the TDs -- particularly the high-alpha TDs -- have are a high skill floor especially compared to mediums. It takes positioning, aiming, and 3-4 penning shots in a T-62a to get 960-1280 damage. That is the equivalent of one good hit in a JpE/FV 183.

 

Pubbies love camping. They love sitting in a spot and waiting for tanks to roll into them. Those of them who are not camping love rushing headlong into camping TDs and get obliterated.

 

Now I grant you that they are not great for carrying, especially post-nerf. They are also easy for you to deal with. But you're easily one of the best players on the server, clearly within the top 0.1% or so. What a bunch of TDs on the opposite team does is shred your team and mitigate YOUR carry ability.

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Anything that can hamper one persons ability to carry the whole team is fine in my eyes. Though the Td's that can magically fire 10 rounds at you from 100 meters away and never get lit is the only problem I have.

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I don't even know that it's a shitty meta. Basically, a successful counter to those TDs is to let them have their magic forest while you destroy the rest of their team and then swarm the hell out of them endgame. That ain't bad. Pubs just aren't patient enough to not "tardrush."

And if the timelimit were longer and maybe the map bigger that would be easy to do. 

However once it's down to 2 minutes and there are tds camping the forest you are between a rock and a hard place. It's just shitty gameplay. 

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Like I said in the OP, I don't see TDs as being especially effective for/against pubbies - that's not how I see games play out. The most common pub-destroyer in public matches is being overrun. Pubbies split up, suddenly 5 tanks meet 9 and bam you're down 5 tanks and the cycle repeats on another flank. This is what wrecks my carry ability, not the 704 in the corner who outputs 2/3 of his damage after I've already won.

 

 

What the TDs -- particularly the high-alpha TDs have are a high skill floor especially compared to mediums. It takes positioning, aiming, and 3-4 penning shots in a T-62a to get 960-1280 damage. That is the equivalent of one good hit in a JpE/FV 183.

 

Common example of someone seeing damage numbers are getting confused - it doesn't matter that a pubbie in a 62a can't meet the damage that a pubbie in a 183 can dish out. This is irrelevant - that 62a is going to be influencing the match in more ways than one. 183s don't acquire map control, vision lanes, slow down opposing pushes, flex around the map, reset cap, etc. Even yellow players can manage to do some of this. In this way a med/heavy is always going to contribute more than their score indicates.

 

And let's not kid ourselves, one hit with a 183 or JPE is a big deal for the average player. It's not as simple as saying "well its just one shot compared to 4". I'm not saying that it's not still easier to land that one shot, but it's nothing like the ease of hitting one 62a shot.

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Anything that can hamper one persons ability to carry the whole team is fine in my eyes. Though the Td's that can magically fire 10 rounds at you from 100 meters away and never get lit is the only problem I have.

And it's better if one bad player sitting in a bush can hamper that persons ability to carry simply by their willingness to sit there?

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I think TDs as a whole are not as good as mediums/heavies for winning consistently, which is why I've completely stopped playing them. Not having a turret and workable armor is a massive liability.

 

What makes some TDs overpowered on some maps is ridiculous camo ratings. The rhoomba, waffle 4, t49 and hellcat come to mind. Some just have overly ridiculous firepower; the tier 10 waffle has some severe drawbacks but there is no denying at this point that it is statistically one of the strongest tanks in the game by winrate and damage output.

 

Most TDs just make for very stale gameplay. Large alpha together with shitty map design tend to discourage active play. With proper map design, I don't think the problem would be nearly as bad since you can more easily punish poor mobility and lack of a turret. Himmelsdorf, Ensk, Sand River and the current Erlenberg, for example, are maps where TDs are complete garbage against medium/heavy tanks.

 

Too much alpha/camo in general makes pushing a lot harder since you need a much larger numerical advantage to weather the initial losses from the defenders first shot advantage. Many maps in this game are very choke point oriented which makes flanking hard to do to break camps sometimes. Think Hidden Village, Arctic Region, Karelia, Severegorsk, Komarin, etc. Dedicated TD players are in practice the most willing to just sit and stare at a corner all game which doesn't help matters either.

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And if the timelimit were longer and maybe the map bigger that would be easy to do. 

However once it's down to 2 minutes and there are tds camping the forest you are between a rock and a hard place. It's just shitty gameplay. 

Then again, a lot of magic forests don't have a good view of the cap circle. 15 minutes is plenty of time for the other tanks to duke it out and have a clear winner. The problem in stalemates is that the other tanks are camping in sidescrape positions in addition to the TDs' campfest.

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A pubbie in a full health say...E100 a lot of the time won't even take a 390 damage hit so you can push up with him, so anything larger, as with the case with TDs are just out of the question. You're punished severely if you get hit.

Komarin forest camp at the end of the game is a perfect example. Manageable if it's non TDs but if I don't want to take 750 damage or try to survive a Waffle clip I pretty much have to wait for them to get lit.

@Rexxie Then you may not find yourself in a lot of these situations. 5 v 9s offer a lot more opportunities of tackling the situation but not so much an E3 holding half your team with whatever's behind him.

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i've changed my mind now that they've been nerfed

 

twas crab

 

But you did think that they promoted campy meta before nerfing? How did the nerfs change that?

 

Only a few tank destroyers are meant to be aggressive, the rest feast on damage that others would have gotten anyway and they don't contribute anything positive to the match

Any tank type can sit in a bush and blast away at spotted tanks, few can actually be the spotters

 

This is pretty narrow-minded, do you think the game should be all mediums?

 

I don't find td's hard to deal with either, but that goes for every other tank as well. And that's just because I can play this game better than most, just like you Rexxie. But I do think they power creeped too far and as such make games more campy (this has to do with map design also of course so it could be fixed that way too). 

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A pubbie in a full health say...E100 a lot of the time won't even take a 390 damage hit so you can push up with him, so anything larger, as with the case with TDs are just out of the question. You're punished severely if you get hit.

Pubs being pubs.

 

Komarin forest camp at the end of the game is a perfect example. Manageable if it's non TDs but if I don't want to take 750 damage or try to survive a Waffle clip I pretty much have to wait for them to get lit.

Draws suck. Ostensibly in this sort of situation some of your own campy TDs have survived and are hanging out by your base. If that clock looks like it's going to tick down and I'm in that situation, I'll just yolo the hell out of those TDs. The worst outcome of a yolo is a draw given that your TDs stay camping and will protect your cap. That's pretty much the same outcome as if you didn't yolo. The best outcome, of course, is that your pubs manage to clear out that wasp's nest regardless of whether or not you die.

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But you did think that they promoted campy meta before nerfing? How did the nerfs change that?

 

The most effective part of the nerf was the population drop. Ye olde "if its nerfed im not going to play it" rule kicked in and the population dropped like flies. Yes, having 10 TDs in a match will make it campy - but as a general rule of thumb, a reasonable number of TDs don't influence the meta of a match much.

 

But yes, dropping the alpha did help.

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